Dear Gearbox, Regarding Vault Hunter Passive Skills, that need to be looked at!

Hey Gearbox! its me again!
Since you have started buffing and nerfing recently and also included some skills in there, today I want to take the time to talk about all four Vault Hunters and their passive skills.
not so much about whole trees and their philosophies in general, but more so on spicific skills as they are right now, and WHY they are either weird, underwhelming, or terribly bad. :slight_smile:

Lets start off easy, with Fl4k.


Hunter tree

The Hunter tree is pretty solid overall and well rounded, it is a chanced based tree that focuses solely on damage, pretty nice!

  • leave no trace - this really doesn’t need an internal cooldown. I know its only 0.3 seconds now and it is not all that bad… but even 0.1 would be okay to not abuse it in any way. if it keeps the internal cooldown, at least show us in the tool tip.

  • Hunter’s Eye - I personally think that this is a waste of 5 points… as you only ever really have one of those active, beast and especially robots are relativly rare. the robot bonus with 30% damage IS nice but it is extremly niche. so it is basically a 15% crit damage for 5 points… this could easily be a 3 pointer talent in my opinion, or it needs to be buffed so everything on its own is worth the 5 point investment in this highly contested upper half.

Stalker tree

This is another really good tree overall! its the survival specialist with a lot of damage in it! I really like it!
A missed opportunity here mayyybe would have been an augment of some kind that actually increases melee damage, since there IS potential for a melee fl4k build, since melee attacks dont cause him to lose invisability… he just lack that bit of melee support for this playstyle.

  • Sic 'em - obviously Pet damage is non exsitent at the moment, therefore this is completly useless right now… IF however you finally decide to buff the pet damage to make this relevant, this extra increase in damage for 3 points is nice.
    HOWEVER… IF you than increase the damage and the pet CAN kill enemys on its own… the reduced cooldown really doesnt do alot since one step below there is “eager to impress” which resets the cooldown anyway when the pet kills an enemy…
    so instead maybe of reducing the cooldown, give 30% movementspeed in addition to the pet… since the movementspeed and AI on some of your pets is also quite bad… (still needs a baseline AI/movespeed improvement on the pet too)

Master tree

So the huge problem in this tree is the lack of actually pet damage, not in the tree itself, but the pets baseline Damage. if this gets fixed, I think this tree can be a lot of fun!

  • Ferocity - obvioulsy this just doesn’t do enough right now… but you know that, the pet damage is almost non existent, and 50% does not change that. IF you increase the baselane damage enough though (by like at least 500% for mayhem 3) this then of course becomes quite good. otherwise make this 500% ^^

  • Go for the Eyes! - this is absolutly one of the worst skills in the game… your “data” might not show this, because everyone trying to make a pet build work will take it… but when you look into it even then this is omega trash… it is ONE hit where the pet does not even double damage… do you really thought that this is so the pet can oneshot trash mobs? wel lthen you certainly did not test your game after making this… this is ONLY noticable on exatly level 11… and only goes down hill from there… the pet does about 2-5% per hit on a regualr enemy… so making this ONE HIT 3.5-9% really does NOTHING, and this for FIVE points!
    Even when a damage buff comes, this either needs a full redesign or make it at least 150%! then it becomes interesting if you want our pets to one shot trash mobs.

  • He bites - I think this could easily be buffed by 100% as well… make it reflect 30% baseline and 60% with a classmod, this would give a huge insentive to go for a tank pet build! as a baseline, this isn’t really worth the points.

  • Psycho head on a stick - again… right now does nothing, but with a damage increase on the pet this will be picked up, its just one pont more in Ferocity that also gives movement speed. which is somewhat kinda lame, but good none the less. maybe slap some more movementspeed on there or another 5-10% damage just to spice it up and really feel an investment into the pet compared to a non pet build.

  • Barbaric Yawp - while this IS pretty nice now, the Master tree focuses mainly on buffing the PET and not HIMSELF.
    I think this will be picked up more by builds that want to invest more into the other trees and will be ignored most of the time on a Pet build.
    SO my suggestion here goes hand in hand with my idea for buffing “go for the eyes!” and then simply SWITCH their positions on the tree. So even a non pet build or a a build that does not care about the pet at all has access to this skill, and a Pet build will have a smoother transition down the tree, since the top half is ALL about pet damage already.
    This will also allow the “go for the eyes” skill to be buffed sinces it is a big investement at that point.

  • Shared spirit (+hivemind) - I feel really weird about those two skills beeing in the tree, hivemind certainly has its right and is therefore not mentionted by me before… but why this skill than too?
    while beeing on low health? when you are on low health you are healthgated anyway… you wont take damage while on low health and than NOT be healthgated… you also wont survive if a hit with this even when not healthagted…
    this is SUPER weird AND useless a the same time, it is just a WAY worse version of hivemind… at least make it so ALL damage to HEALTH specifically is reduced by like 30% THEN you at least feel it AND it would go well with his whole life regen subtheme where you now want to manage your health and the pet health at the same time, which would make it pretty interesting to play with and have a nice gameplay loop where you and your pet try to keep each other alive!

  • Dominance - this is the single worst skill in the game… and this is a keystone too… no one will ever take this to seriously use it… maybe they want to try it, or forget they have it… but this is NOT a good skill in ANY scenario… you NEVER want to take this… and I think this is SO bad that you can’t even salvage this…
    ofcourse the first and obvious choice here, and what many people would have wished for, would be to give us a second Pet slot beeing able to summon 2 Pets at the same time! this would do SO much powerwise (which this tree really lacks on its own even with a buffed pet), giving is double pet buffs which then actually makes you want to go for “barbaric yawp”! This would do SO much flavor wise! beeing a REAL beast master! AND would basically DOUBLE our overall pet damage and area coverage!
    Ofcourse I know this has probably not happened because of game stability reasons, hud changes and Attack command issues… but IF this is technically possible… this would be the greatest thing ever!
    another solution would be to make this another melee centric skill, as I mentioned before, there is potential in fl4k for a melee invis build. Call this Skill something like “unleashed inner beast” or “Robot and the…” this will turn you into a stalking robot beast yourself, giving you 200% melee damage baseline and than a melee overrided where you sic a target yourself slashing them for 3-5x times swift and furious melee slashes healing yourself for 50% of damage done. this than can have a 8 second cooldown or resets whenever your pet uses an attack command.
    This would add a WHOLE new playstyle and another gameplay loop to the game, where you constantly attack comamnd one enemy with your pet, and sic another enemy yourself, repeating this over and over to kill enemys like two ferocious beasts! and providing an alternative melee option besides Amara. DIVERSITY YAY!

I honestly think that all augments for Fl4k skills are really good. they all have their uses. I only see to little issues

  • Atomic Aroma - now this is our first instance of a FLAT damage number, and we will se the problem with those much more later with the other VHs… flat Numbers are REALLY bad in this game, when you have NO way to increase or buff them, they DONT interact orbenefit from ANY other increase in our tree AND you have scaling content where the enemys health goes up significantly and your damage stays the same… this is the main issue with the pets, the clone, and iron bear… and these skills with FLAT numbers on them…
    either make them SCALE with mayhem difficulty, so they also get increased by like 100% per mayhem level or make them scale better in any other way. I think JUST flat increase the dmage always would serve NO purpose, since they are extremly well balanced on non-mayhem mode actually.
    I just think you added mayhem mode way later in development and then just forgot about your numbers…
  • Rakk attack! - same goes for the actually skill Rakk attack… the damage is just not that competitive, it IS used, but more so for its spammability and not for the actual rakks itself… so they two need a dmaage buff… OR! what WOULD be really nice… if they would scale with ALL pett bonuses! making them count as actual pets for all intents and purposes!

Fl4k overall has probably the best skill trees in the game, easy to understand and you know exactly what you will do with this, simple and clean with enough nuance to min max your builds.


Shield of Retribution

this tree is amazingly strong in both defense and offense, its like Fl4ks stalker tree, really well balanced for offense and defense!

  • Selfless Vengence - I find this just really weird… I get it, its a way to reduce your health, this is nice. But her WHOLE schtick is to NOT reload, yet this makes you reload on purpose and THEN only lasting 5 seconds?? why not at least make it 15 seconds? this skill besides the fire damage has NO synergy with the rest of her kit ^^ and I have not yet seen anyone usw this, since there are WAY better ways to reduce your health, AS YOU SHOULD KNOW.

  • Behind iron curtain - this skill is fine yet underwhelming… the rest of this tree is SO good and gives you SO much… that 21% shield recharge is something you never have the points to take… this can easily be pushed to at least 30%,45% or even 60%, to also offset potentially negative modifiers. :wink:

  • Force Feedback - … why …? this skill is completly meaningless once you reach enough guardian ranks… and isnt even that good to begin with without it… honestly a feature to disable each guardian rank perk is a NECESSITY… "shield reboot hurts melee amara so much… and makes this even more useless… either change this completly, or at least give it a percentage based heal on your shield instead and a “downside” to also synergies… something like, “remove 5% of current health and restore 20% of your shield instantly after you score a critical kill”

  • tenacious defense - sadly you often die before this can even proc on most moze builds that go down this tree with all your emphasis wanting us at 1 hp. so this REALLY needs to proc MORE instantly or give INSTANT invulnerability for a split second after the shield gets destroyed or even when a shot WOULD destroy it… so this will reliably proc… right now it sadly doesnt work all that well, since it activates to slowly…

Bottomless Mags

so for the bottomless mags tree I just feel like it lacks some kind of SIGNIFICANT damage skill.
it just has exactly ONE damage increasing skill that is also kinda weird (but in a good way), where it gets stronger when you cant keep your goal of maintaing your high mag size instead of rewarding you too IF you can fire a lot!
what WOULD have been nice is a something like a skill called “hold the trigger!.. hotror!” (GoT refrence? xD I dunno)
that says “each second while you hold down the fire button increase your gun damage by 1-5%, stack up to 10 times.” giving you real insentive to dont stop shooting! and a nice 50% gun damage after 10 seconds of firing! this is also pretty balanced by the fact that you will rarely reach the full power before the enemy dies and does not make you one shot everything from the get go. OR makes you shoot the air if you really can maintain it forever somehow ^^ THIS would be fun! RAMBO STYLE!

  • Dakkar Bear - while a cool idea… and fun the first time you use it while leveling and even IF IB would do damage this is just INSANLY underwhelming… this should give a teammate access to one of your IB weapons (of your choosing?) or needs a MAJOR damage buff… you lose a WHOLE teammate worth of DPS for a gimmick that does less damage than a fl4k pet does… this is just sad… give it more umpf and significantly boost its damage all through out the game.
    OR just make the teammate mount the iron bear but let them shoot THEIR weapons still, and just protect them under IBs HP.

  • Specialst Bear - we will get to iron bear in a second here… but as of right now, this is insignificant since IB does no damage anyway, so this not not help… also I think it would make much more sense if there where two of these skills, one where you get damage on using the same weapon, and one where you get a buff if you have two seperate weapons… call it like " two is better than one"
    since then there is more choice than just oh yeah I use the same thing twice…(which isnt bad) maybe faster reload and faster start of reload when using 2 diffrent weapons. or more attackspeed.
    Honestly I personally would switch it though… give using two diffrent weapons the more damage. and then if you are using two of the same give them a buff depending on weapon you use, reload on rockets, overheat on minigun, fire rate on launcher, melee damage/range on fists, range on flamethrower and critical damage on rail guns. something like that.

Demolition Woman

This tree is extremely good if you keep yourself on the left side of the tree…
on the righte there is a lot of stuff related to this rare thing called iron bear… I know, you have probably never seen one out there in the wild, well thats because rumor has it that in reallity it does not exist… at least this is what my “data” shows. but let me get to it a little bit.

  • Deadlines - oh Iron bear… I wont go into detail AS much… since Iron bear deserves a whole thread on its own with HOW bat it actually is ( design wise and especially late game).
    deadline is the first of FOUR WHOLE SKILLS that SOLE PURPOSE is to MAINTAIN Iron Bear… not to mention the classmod that also has the SOLE PURPOSE of MAINTAINING Iron bear… gearbox… if you need FOUR skills with an EIGHTEEN skillpoint investment AND a CLASSMOD Slot… JUST so you can MAINTAIN IRON BEAR… dont you think there might be a problem with the baseline Iron bear?!
    I really want to know what was going on their during testing…
    So… my first point, which this skills tries to “fix” for the broken man Iron bear is less fuel drain from weapon… well … FIRING IRON BEAR WEAPONS SHOULD NOT DRAIN FUEL! this is the first and biggest major flaw! this CAN be a gimmick for the flamethrower to embrace, since it has no ammo it uses fuel! this would make SENSE and is OKAY. but WHY does every weapon need EXTRA fuel on EACH shot in the first place…? I really dont get that… so this should NOT be the case in the future and fuel drain on weapon shots should NOT exist (just on the flame thrower)
    Otherwise I think this skill is fine. Draining less fuel and then return fuel on kill is really nice to maintain iron bear and it FEELS good to see it jump back up… although I still dont like deminishing returns… just let me be iron salvador… but I know this wont happen and Im fine with it…

  • Grizzled (+ Explosive Punctuation) - look I know that if Iron bear would be good it is extremly powerful … but maybe the base cooldown is just too long… have to invest 10 skillpoints just to get it back more frequently feels REALLY REALLY bad… because it doesnt even help while beeing in iron bear…
    so really what he needs is a reduction in its base cooldown, and then have just ONE skill deticated to cooldown. what I really would love to see is the salvador treatment. make it so that each time you deal explosive damage cooldown is reset by 1 second(on all skill levels) (with deminishing returns, or better yet give it a 1 second internal cooldown… so each second dealing splash damage and beeing inside ironbear gives one second back already (so you cant abuse it with flamethrowers or mini gun))
    AND than 1-5 seconds on each kill! (with deminishing returns… :/)
    so now you have an interessting an meaningful skill that is worth 5 points and you maybeeeee can be salvador with infinite uptime on IB!

  • Stainless Steel Bear - NO… just NO! why does this exist? we already have a fuel skill, why another one? and what does 30% armor alone does? alomst nothing! what is this… who made this? NO!
    this needs a complete rework…increasing ironbears armor should be baseline… and not be a required skill.
    this could be made into something like “new update available”
    "repairs iron bears armor by 1-5%/sec, every time iron bear restored 10% of its max health gain a Stack of “Hot Fix” each stack of “Hot Fix” increases Iron bear damage by 20%, stacks 3 times. (hehe)
    see, same with my idea for bottomless megs, I like strong skills that need some time to develop. so you dont one shot everything immediatly, but instead get stronger over some time. so I really like this idea, and it provides a lot more sustain than just 30% armor… I intend to use Iron bear alot… this will help me survive a alot! (also it would be self ironic and a really nice gesture from gearbox if they really name it Hot Fix. ^^)

  • ??? - so now that we removed one skill entirely we have room for a WHOLE new skill for Iron Bear.
    Introducing: “Mechzerker”
    "Kill Skill: whenever iron bear kills an enemy with a gun he gains a stack of “Salvation”
    or everytime he kills an enemy with melee, a Stack of “Brick Wall”!
    Each stack of “Salvation” will increase Gun Damage by 1-5%
    Eack Stack of “Brick Wall” will increase Melee Damage by 5-10%
    Shared Max Stacks: 10
    When Iron bear reaches 10 stacks IB and Moze will start to enter ZERKZERKING! for 10 seconds(and start to shout and laugh like maniacs!) Become immune to damage, drain no fuel, infinite ammo, gaining 50% movement speed and increasing all damage dealt by 100%! Can only trigger once while Iron bear is active.

and this is my Iron bear rework of dreams ladies and gentleman ^^ but I know this is probably to complicated… so just a kill skill increases damage would be fine I guess :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

back to skills!

  • Why cant I carry all this long text… - this skill is useless… I never understand this kind of skill… axton had the same boring thing… 3 more greandes do NOT help… its not about how much you have, but how you can regain them… sustainablity is not achieved with increasing the maximum… save miss understanding you have with iron bear hp atm… so this is just garbage, no one uses this… its bad. it wound help any grenade build… especially when you can have class mods with +5 grenades… so why does this exist? nobody knows… I say remove it… and maybe make it another Iron bear talent.
    how about “Tremor Protocol”
    “increases the radius and damage of Iron bears melee Attack,
    Increases radius by 10-30% and Melee Damage by 100-300%”
    this will then create a whole new build for the iron bear in combination with my mechzerker or even without it. this will give me insetiv to PUNCH people, or Slam them.
    or how about “Launch Protocol”
    “Add a Grenade Launcher module to you mech, allowing it to fire a Grenade with your grenade mod, reload time 5 seconds.”
    both ideas I think are pretty neat :slight_smile:
    hopefully you agree.

  • Torgue Cross-Promotion - as funny as the name is, as funny as the idea this… this really is just a bad skil lto pick up… yes it SOMETIMES, SLIGTHLY increases you clearspeed… but really is just 5 points for nothing… you more often than not find yourself killing your own ass more with this by accident and even if not, it reallsy isnt all that use ful because enemys just to bundle up that much in this game… and my question then is WHY is the cahnce SO low??? 3% for a WHOLE skillpoint? are you serious? maybe just mage it 25 just be save? it is SO ironic that this is a TORGUE related skill.
    …uh sorry… what was that? what happened here? well… anyway… this skill needs major buffs or become a 3 pointer as well… (leave more room for iron bear love!)

  • Short Fuse - so I know this might be where I step over the line for some people… but I swear I really am genuine… I think this is kinda lame… it SOUNDS so cool in theory… but the proc chance is soooo low that it really isn’t all that fun… what I would want to see is the follow change:
    “Whenever Moze OR IRON BEAR deals Gun damage there is a chance for a secondary explosion centered on the target.
    Secondary explosion chance: 33%
    Secondary explosion damage: 50%”
    this is a SIMPLE fix, just to make it more consistant without cluttering the screen with to much visual noise… I know that its nice for fast firing guns, but slow firing guns (which you are using if you invest in this tree a whole lot) aren’t really benefiting from this a whole lot.
    OR make it:
    “Secondary explosion chance: 50%
    Secondary explosion damage: 50%”
    and then add a 0.5 second cooldown, so fast guns dont lag the game to much. this is still not a 25% damage increase since it IS still inconsitant. but at least fun to use! and feels rewarding!

I think most of these are actually pretty fun if they were useful! obviously fuel drain should be removed from shooting and then base fuel drain should be adjusted, or fuel drain needs to be HEAVILY reduced for shooting… if fuel drain gets removed fuel drain from augemnts should be removed in general too, (besides flame thrower)

Moze alongside fl4k has three really straight forward and strong, nicely balanced skill trees, the only real bad thing here is that Iron bear atm is near useless, but you guys know that and are working on it… I hope this will help you get some ideas!


Brawl tree

Brawl tree is pretty good overall as I said with fl4k and moze, the perfect overall balanced tree with survivability and damage.

  • Do unto others - this is basically the only skill I want to talk about here, and this is my Main issue with Amara, see she has a lot of these FLAT damage skills… she throws this orb for around 3k-5k damage… but there is REALLY no way to improve this damage in any way, and it does not scale into lategame AT ALL… so why does it have a 8 second cooldown for no reason?
    I think this could be WAY more interesting IF you would make this actually SCALE with your MELEE damage. make it so all melee damage bonuses are apllied to this thing! so you basically shoot out tiny revenge seeking fists! that would be so cool! and these things would hit extremly hard! a nice extra way to increase melee potential at range while also beeing super fun to see!
    Another lame solution would be do just increase all flat damage numbers when ever you enter mayhem mode by 100%,200% and 300% respectivly. this would at least make it usable if it hit for 16k each time on tvhmm3

  • Blitz - I have now come to terms with it… but I really think this is a MUCH weaker version of what Athena had a the pre sequel.
    you rarely one hit anything but trashmobs, so right from day one I found it strange that the first hit with you initiation skill is the one you are suppose to kill with… what I would like to see is a better way to fresh it or be more generous with it.
    either just blatantly make it so it resets on any melee kill
    or give it some leeway, make it apply a debuff for 2 seconds and if the enemy dies in that time refresh it. this would help with melee bombs, burn from dragon or just give you enough time for another hit.
    Or make it just like athena and refresh it once when it hits an enemy for the first time, and then again if it kills an enemy… so here you have the best of both worlds and can at least double punch an enemy.
    But even if it stays like this it is fiiiine, melee amara is super strong… so she doesn’t need it… its just a “feel good” thing you know…

Mystical Assault

overall I find this to be the most confusing out of all trees, since I dont really see a clear purpose here, its more like an addition to the other two trees, it focuses around your action skill yes, but I dont think it improves it enough, and the active is probably the least used late game since its annoitments aren’t as good or interesting. If I go down this tree I really want to spam my skill more! even without op guardian ranks! and I want to really pack a punch (hah!) when I smash someone with phasecast or phase slam, right now phaseslam does as much damage as a normal melee attack or even less even when fully buffed so maybe some number improvements here and there would go a long way. or again! make it scale with melee! since you know… the PUNCHES stuff (Magically!)
ofcourse I am beeing overly critical here. amara is insanely strong in each of her trees. I know that.

  • From rest - not much to say here… it is just pretty dull… the cahrge time is nice IF Maliwans where good… but 12% fire rate is nothing all that special… could be a bit more meaningful. maybe make it like wrath, where using your skills buffs it even more!

  • Remnant - now this has some nice scaliing on it. but this is basically a 1 pointer… you NEVER put more than 1 point here so just make it 1 and be done with it… it has again the the flat damage problem… so increasing that does literally nothing, you pick this for the overkill damage.

  • Avatar - so this was a bit disapointing after the first use. because the description is misleading.
    you dont actaully get a “free charge” during the cooldown… you are actually just able to use it twice in a row. but the second use will reset the cooldown to its full duration. so you really don’t get double uses in one cooldown time, you just get two uses and then the cooldown starts. I would either change the text to better reflect that… OR really give us a free use during cooldown and then just maintain the cooldown as it was before.
    when the respec bug finally gets fixxed (and it should!) this would be a really helpful and FUN buff!
    and no she doesn’t need it… but again, its FUN!
    like this is somtimes feels clunky where you dont really know if you can still use it or not in a hectic situation.

Fist of the Elements

I think the elemental tree has enough going for it, and the points that it has that are good are EXTREMLY good… its just sad to see that it has 2 skills that are COMPLETELY unusable right now. and these skills with Flat damage need to be look at as soon as possible.

  • infusion - this should simply add a little bonus damage to it aswell " convert a portion of damage dealt by amara into her actions skill element and deal increased damage with that element" +4-20% increased elemental damage
    this is a simple fix to make this skill viable when using elemental guns. there are alot of tests out there, and for non elemental guns this is amazing. but for elemental guns, and if you then change that element it can actually decrease the damage! and this is just not okay… this should be more useful in more build! this change would help that. also there really isn’t a whole lot of damage gains in this tree.

  • wildfire - I am just sad that this isnt 10% per level… I like it when stuff rounds up. why cant I have 100% with 10 points in it… why must it be 80% so it is just BARELY satisfying? meh, still good though.

  • Catharsis - back to the flat damage problem amara suffers from… this does NO dmaage AND it has a cooldown… again… why…? and then the DoT damage that gets transfered doesn’t even do the same damage as the DoT that was on the first target… again why? the DoTs that can spread are based off of the abysmally low Catharsis damage…
    I would just give this the same treatment as “Remnant” and make it so that any DoT that was ON the target when it exploded gets refreshed and re applied at the same damage to the new targets… now THAT would be fun! … oh and then just make it a 1 pointer too… since you just want to spread it…
    OR keep it with 3 points but actually increase the radius of the explosion! or reduce the cooldown from 8 to 6 to 4 maybe. something like this! right now this is USELESS

  • Conflux - this thing oh boy… its even worse than everything before this… is is JUST useless from every point of view…the DoT it applies it so tiny it cant even kill enemys at the point you get it while leveling… the DoT it applies are absolutly minimal, its a really bad joke…
    Again the easy and good feel good fix here would be to apply another DoT that does the SAME damage as the dot that aplied it… this would be super strong and basically by chance double your DoT damage!
    as it is it is never worth a pick up. it needs significant damage increase by like 1000%-2000% it is THAT weak… and make it scale.

  • Sustainment - I just find this oddly specific, its ony the damage you directly dealt with you gun… I think this should just be lowered and apply to everything, this could easily be as low as 10% of all elemental damage dealt or make it a 3 pointer for 12% of all elemental damage dealt (krieg lives on!)
    but its ofcourse again super strong as is.

  • Forceful expression - I just found this to be the most boring keystone in the game, yes it is strong, but this could easily just be on “infusion” as I said. and then make this something more interesting. or just stronger… right now her most damaging gun build doesn’t even use elemental weapons… maybe then make this more specific but in turn more powerful?
    make it so only elemental damage from guns is increased by an amount like 35%.
    So if you use a non elemental gun, only 40% (converted) of that guns damage gets increased, so its only a 16% damage increase on a non elemental gun (basically same as now) but 35% if you use a FULL elemental gun! I think amara could benefit from that.

this is a weird case for me… because I think amara actually hase TO MANY usable skills that aren’t really all that diffrent enough… most of them in a group feel just the same… and this is especially true for phase cast… I always soot out a projection… sometime it flies through the enemy, some times it explodes on contant… it realls isnt all that diffrent, and phaser cast isn’t even that viable at the moment.
these are 4 skills that basically are the same.
as for phaseslam I think it Fracture is just a grounded phasecast, but diffrent enough!
and downfall really speaks for itself… its really not that good, the damage is insanly weak AND then it also has a bigger cooldown for no apperent reason…
phase grasp I actually see the value in all variants.
as for real augments:

  • Revelation - this just has the flat damage problem and does NO damage, why it lowers the damage I have no idea… add melee damage to this when using phaseslam!
  • Glamour - me, just not good enough compared to everything else… maybe a BIG base radius increase would help.

as for the action skill element… there really needs to be a convenient way to switch these.

  • Hold melee to cycle
  • Hold grenade to Cycle
  • Hold Action Skill to Cycle
  • add a new button to cycle
  • add 3 new buttons to select
    many ways to do so… going into menu constantly really hurts the flow of the game.

Amara is one of the strongest vault hunters right now, here trees are fun and interactive, she just has some major issues with some skills beeing completly irreleveant and utterly useless.


Under Cover

This is already where Zanes identity crisis begins, while all other three VHs have a clear defensiv tree that goes along with some nice damage increases, Zane really doesn’t know what he want to do.
-Fl4k health and gun damage
-Moze shield and gun damage
-Amara Health and Melee Damage
-Zane well shield mostly, but only full, and then also some health but only with no shield at all, and then just 1 sole damage passive in literally one point, OH and then also cryo somewhat kind of but actually not really…
well yeah… and sadly this just doesnt work out that well… and yet it is all worth just because of one of the best skills in this game right at the bottom… but DONT go to far down. because then it gets worse again!

  • ready for action (+Hearty Stock) - why are these even two seperate skills… they are so underwehelming that they could easily just be one and add a more meaning full skill here that actually has NOT to do with shield.
    because you see there is a whole build that you (yes gearbox you) put purposefully in the game that revolves around me as zane NOT having shields… yet you FORCE me to pick one out of three diffrent shield passives? WHY?
    the aboslutly most easy and most important fix here is to JUST swap “ready for action” with “Rise to the occasion” right below it. so immediatly I can use health regen that basically does not care about shield, and than never look at this skill ever again…
    the actual good way would be to fuse this skill together with “Harty Stock”, and than make a whole new skill.
    like “Cool of Duty”
    “Zane gains increased cryo efficency and deals increased Cryo damage.
    Cryo efficency: +10%-30%
    Cryo Damage: +10%-30%” 3 point skill
    this would actually be the first skill here that actually has to do with cryo damage… actually.

  • Brainfreeze - this skill, I really dont see how people think this has real value… this skill is SO weak…
    for this skill to freeze you to jump through THREE hoops
    -FIRST you NEED to crit… okay not that hard I can do that, is he frozen now? NO!
    -SECOND you have to get lucky with the 20% proc CHANCE on crit!.. oh okay, thats sound harsh, so basically on average 5 crits to proc it… but surely THEN he will be frozen right? NOPE!
    -THIRD the enemy is THEN only SLOWED… and you have to do this MULTIPLE TIMES to freeze an enemy… REALLY NOW? Aww man…
    yeah this whole skill is terrible… there just isnt much else to pick up here… so you HAVE to take it… because it AT LEAST does something…Sometimes…
    this needs a whole rework.
    this could easily just be made a Cryo efficency Skill like I said above, or just extremely simplified.
    like “Brainfreeze”
    “Critical hits deal more damage and deal bonus Cryo damage.
    Critical Hit Damage: +4-20%
    Bonus Cryo Damage: +4%-20%” 5 point skill
    this would just slow anyway on crit and then just have the same chance to freeze.

  • Best Served Cold - well HI there Amara players, does this sound familiar? YES! its a nova on kill that does zero damage! you are totally right!
    I think this should be as simples as it is… BUT ofcourse needs that 1000%-2000% damage increase! because it is THAT pathetic and weak…
    maybe then there could also be added an additional line of text here:
    "if the Target was frozen, the nova will deal 100% increased damage.
    “if the Target was frozen, the nova will have +100% cryo efficency”
    just to make it more viable AND FUN.

  • Nerves of Steel - this skill honestly isn’t even half bad… but it so far down in the tree where you never go AND you have the two most important skills in this tree in the same row here… so this skill just NEVER will have a chance to be picked up.
    Maybe either add Gun damage to this skill…
    “Stiff Upper Lip” + “Really Expensiv Jacket” + “Futility Belt” are all so similiar, especially “Really Expensiv Jacket” + “Futility Belt” that they could easily be made into a single skill.
    thus guiving room to move "nerves of Steel one row higher or even 3 rows higher.

  • Distributed Denial - This right now is really a joke in itself… nobody knows why it is in the game in this state… nobody knows what its use is… literally NO shield works with this in any way… there is NO synergie and NO one knows what this was suppose to accomplish…
    having another messy break up drone?shoot out tiny corrosiv arrows?
    maybe there will come a shield that is amazing with this… but even then this has ONE use that you need ONE item for???
    I really dont know what to make of this…
    to be honest I am so confused with this that I dont even have a Idea for it myself right now… and this thread already took me 4 hours to write up until this point… I am just gonna skip on this… and say this needs to be heavily reconsidered right now… might as well be the least picked keystone, even less so than dominance. also you know… your clone gets this 26 point investment for free… so yeah…

now this tree has a clear cut goal! KILL! nice!
Its so clean in fact that its lower half is completly empty! yay!
But what did you say? it again only has ONE single skill that increases base damage?..well at least its 6 points worth of damage now in 2 whole trees! two is more than none!

  • Cold Bore - what does this DO here?
    why would you put cryo in here?
    why only after I swap a weapons
    why only for ONE shot?
    whats my prupose?? kill mee!! it huurts!
    this has no right to exist… and IF you want to keep this. this again needs MAJOR MAJOR buffs…

  • Drone Delivery - we need to raise Zanes DPS… so reducing this cooldown to 10 seconds, would it really be SO OP BROKEN? I dont think so… make it 10 second… help a boyo out here…

  • Playing Dirty - the only thing you are playing dirty here gearbox is your zane mains… AGAIN
    for FIVE SHOTS…
    what is this … was the Zane creator trying to torture himself? was he really into hoola hoop? because he or she sure likes to jump through them…
    this is double damage for FIVE SHOTS, ON KILL, SOMETIMES… no just no… make this just 100% always and then just give it a short duration like 5 seconds, so it is 12 seconds of double damage when used right… given how little dps zane does he REALLY needs that.

  • Seein Red - Amazing skill, definitly one of the most powerful… but given how weak Zane is damage wise atm can we not just give this a killskill too? like a simple “Kill Skill: increase Gun damage by +20%”?

Doubled Agend
Last tree finally… this took WAY longer than I had anticipated ^^
this IS my favorite tree in theory since it reminds me so much of my favorite borderlands character to PLAY which is timothy the Doppelganger.
and whaaat we actually have THREE skills that buff damage here? wow! amazing! still it is all conditional and nothing is really reliable… so I still think some number improvemnts would be nice!

  • Borrowed Time - this really isnt worth the pick up… only if you are REALLY desperate for that tiny bit of duration… if you have both things out this add as WOPPING 5 total seconds to your clone! amazing! for ony 5 points! where with good miss fortune (which is onyl 3 points) you get a the same duration with only TWO kills and then even more after that! Amazing!
    this really needs to be 30% for each… this needs a 100% increase to be worth 5 points… especially when competing with that HIGHLY required gun damage…

  • Duct taped Mod - another hoopety hoop skill…
    a 20% CHANCE for a greande
    ONLY on the first shot of you gun
    why why why??? I talked about this before in my Zane thread…
    why not remove that 8 second cooldown so I can paly a build where I utilize a 1 mag weapon to spawn as much grenades as i can?
    why not make it 100% every 8 seconds from my first shot?
    why not make it 20% every 8 or even 5 seconds from ANY shot…

  • like a ghost - 6% damage reduction… or 15% for 8 seconds, in a tree where you want to keep up the clone as much as you can basically… why I have to ask again… why not make it like others skills in this tree?
    “whenever one or more of zanes actions skills are active, zane gains a chance to ignore bullets.
    +3-9% chance per action skill”
    so NOW I have insentive to keep my skills up AND be protected when I do so!

  • Boom. Enhance - the Duration is not properly increased. its way less than it should be… the gun damage increase is werid… why does the clone not scale with your damage bonuses? even with this consuming 3 greandes the clone still does WAY less damage than you do… when it in should bedoing 60% MORE damage than you… sad face… also it sometimes does NOT consume 3 grenades and only two for whatever reason…

  • Double barrel - this is my favorite skill, yet it was severly disapointing the first time I used it… the AI is brain laggy as all heck… the damage is way lower than yours.
    and it took me about 50-80 hours even up until today to figure out all the guns that are actually good or usable with this… this is so counter intuitive, and sure I have the time… but most people wont even bother to look at more that 3-4 guns and then go… well this clone sucks…
    to get more info on that topic visit my other forum thread about this here: Zane's Clone Weapon-Tier-List!


Drone still needs mire damage

  • static field on the drone does low flat damage, unusable and bad…
  • Almighty ordnance - Fun to use… but extremly weak, maybe just give it a cooldown instead of only once, AND majorly increase the damage
  • booms day - still needs more damage latergame


  • Binary System - does no damage Lategame

Zane really has some MAJOR design flaws in his skill, way to many things to take care of, to many hoops to jump through, to little overall damage increases. he needs number increases in everything, and some major fixes.

PUH… this is my list of “bad” skills in the game right now… some are overly critical and some I am really genuinly disapointed about.
anyway… there are almost triple the amount of skills in the game… so I really just mentioned a portion from the overall game…
the game is great. I love it. I love Borderlands… and I deeply care for the future and longevity of this game.

In best regards after 5 hours of writing
Gentlemann - a Fan

Other Stuff

Read more from me and my other recent shamlessly emotional thread about what is wrong with this game!
how to fix loot!
Dear Gearbox, HOW to FIX Loot!
Amara melee statistics and numbers!
Actual Amara Melee Number Statistics! (what does increase the damage, and what does not)
Zane Clone wepaon tierlist
Zane's Clone Weapon-Tier-List!


Thank you for your effort and post. Enlightening.

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The real value of Brain Freeze is not listed on the perk. It allows you to proc Calm, Cool, Collected through Cryo immunity to keep your action skills going against bosses and anointed enemies.

It’s also significantly better when you use a fast firing weapon with a ton of projectiles like a Crossroad.

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I was awaiting another whiny topic but it was a really good in depht analysis (I’ve recently finished TVHM on all 4 character).

I slighty disagree with you on Amara Mystical Assault tree. This tree is really really good, either as a main or second tree, it’s manage to offer a “gun amara” compared to melee and elemental, and implement that with a mix of skill use and pure gun damage.

The only issue with this build is that it only scale properly if you have the Phasezerker class mod

I disagree here. This skill encourages fast firing weapons, Moze is already encouraged towards AR’s (and well anything Vladof). The skill benefits from every gun damage bonus Moze has and is able to proc fire in the Skag den on it’s explosion. It’s plenty powerful as is.

There’s also the side issue of what it would do to console performance.

As stated above this skills benefit to Cool Calm Collected is massive.

The second major benefit is that it allows Zane to reliably freeze targets without having a dedicated cryo gun. Zane can fully element match with his guns while still gaining the benefits of everything getting frozen. It offer synergy to both high fire rate and multi pellet weapons.

Lastly that the clone also has the benefit of cool calm collected is just bonus.

I main Zane and I really aperciate your work! They probably already are in the process of reworking Zane so I hope they realized those points you’ve made themselves. Maybe all those hoops Zane has to jump through are intended but the reward is just so not worth it.
Play Fl4k, slap on GITM and melt bosses with almost no effort. Don’t even have to aim.
Play Zane, pray to RNGesus to proc DTM, PD and BF, keep moving and still reliably hit crits, maintain actionskill and shield uptime for almost nothing in return. Makes me sad.

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I kinda disagree with this, especially the part about buffing it after AS activation. Amara can have crazy low cooldown so that bonus would be up almost all the time. And since fire rate can be considered a multiplicative bonus it’s quite good already, especially on guns where you only need a single magazine for an enemy and/or have a few points in Fast Hands / Alacrity.

disagreeing is always okay :slight_smile:
but I dont disagree with you, its just really hard to cover every angel. and as I said, this tree, and every tree of Amara, is really strong. I just got into the fantasy of the tree a bit to much, thinking it would be nice to increase action skill damage a bit more, since we basically only use it for the annointment buffs and not really to deal damage with it… ^^

of course you are right, and I see that. its just the last point in a tree, that has nothing to do with fast fireing, and I know there needs to be cross synergy between the trees. my only problem is that it really ONLY benefits fastfiring weapons… when you go with any thing else… a launcher, a shot gun, a slow sniper… you kill one enemy, nothing, you kill two enemys, nothing, you kill a third enemy, nothing, you shoot a fourth enemy WTF BOOM DOUBLE EXPLOSION! (uh got lucky there that it porcced on the fourth enemy ^^)
I know this is fun when it happens, but if Im using a dedicated explosive build (which this tree highly revolves around) the actual damage increase of this is pretty insignificant for a key stone.
I dont think it is bad, I just think it could be improved… but yeah performance could be the reason this low chance is here in the first places as I also said ^^

yeah maybe I am undervalueing the skill a bit, again with everything here (well most of it) I dont think it is bad, I just think the design is bad and overly complicated…
make it more simple… make it so you are able to slow annointed enemys and bosses to proc CCC and be done with it.
and I mean just adding cryo damage to you gun would do the same thing, make it EVEN MORE synergistic, and actually benefit your character in a meaningful way.

well this is the point of the tree right? and right on the other side of the same tree you have a gun damage buff that DOES exactly that. so why does gun damage get that treatment and make it more interactive but this fire rate buff is just a small fire rate buff… I hope you get what I mean ^^

I was unaware that it didn’t proc off shotgun pellets. That seems really weird considering how the game tends to treat multi pellet weapons(Think Overkill or LNT pre-nerf.). I wonder if there isn’t possibly already an internal timer of some sort.

GOOD GOD!!! If there’s pertinent information in your post then I’m screwed because I’m not reading all that.

@UNLO4D3D the best way to go about it would be to see which skill you would like to see improved, look if maybe I wrote about it or any one else, and voice your opinion too :slight_smile:

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Just thought I would mention that Iron Bear weapons need to all be looked at, as the values for damage to fuel drain vary wildly from weapon to weapon. The fuel drain for dual miniguns is absurd. They also overheat very quickly. Though all of Iron Bear’s weapons need a damage buff in general that could be tied directly to diffculty you are playing on.

Stainless Steel Bear could be changed from max health to a universal damage reduction. This would greatly enhance Iron Bear survivability.


If dominance was that way it would probably be the go to must have for any pet class. With barbaric yawp and the scorcher great horned skag you would have 3% hp regen and 30% elemental damage along with 15%damage and 30% guns damage. That would be nuts.

Gentlemann, this is a great write up, still reading it. But I just wanted to add that Do unto Others can be buffed. Do harm and the mayhem modifiers for increased action skill seem to have a direct buff to it. I’ve seen it hit for 14k-20k without elemental modifiers.

Also don’t knock Maliwan too much, most suck, yes. But when going into the FotE tree some legendaries hit like a truck.

A BIT to strong for a keystone I agree.

Another possibly bug skill. Frenzy doesnt seem to increase stacks when pets attack. At least for my gh skag

Also, If FL4K is on the back, Fl4K’s dummy thicc ass blocks the entire screen.