@Gorbles: also check the 2L credits for the game - they’re a little more specific.

Honestly I try to understand you seriously but if you don’t take the topic, where frustration is a part or consequence of it, from the OP seriously, I guess I don’t have to. Otherwise what else should we be discussing? More semeantics?

Yup, that was part of my original point - the separation of duties (or even overlap) between Gearbox and 2K, and how Gearbox get all of the blame for circumstances that could be well out of their control. That’s all!

It came out of advice for Gearbox to just “do the thing”. Gearbox can’t always “do the thing”. That’s what people don’t understand. If we want to hold Gearbox to account, cool, but it can’t just be Gearbox then. And we have to balance that, as players, against the decisions Gearbox do make that players don’t always enjoy.

I can be frustrated and still express myself constructively. Is it too much to expect that of others? I often debate people who are frustrated! But my reaction will differ on a per-person basis, as does everybody’s.

I don’t really understand what’s controversial about this. I take the topic as it comes, in good faith. People either prove or do not prove, individually, that good faith. You do, for example. Others don’t. I don’t think it’s wrong of me to not bother with the people not discussing this fairly. And again! This is PM territory, which is why I didn’t want to get stuck on it :slight_smile:

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Are we remembering the same launch? BL2 was a way bigger departure from BL1 then BL3 is to BL2 and the community was definitely split down the middle in regards to gameplay, writing, and drop rates. Aside from the poor scaling of action skills (which apparently a fair number of people didn’t care much about) and some skills being bugged, there wasn’t a whole ton of negative press for BL3. Or at least, not that wasn’t “this wasn’t BL2 so I don’t like it” which is normal for any sequel. You didn’t start seeing the really negative takes until those nerfs happened, and the drop rates were lowered.

BL2 was busted at launch but aside from the really egregious bug fixes like Bee-call and evil smasher, everything was left alone. OP combos would be there for all to enjoy. When GB nerfed “overperforming” gear and builds 2 weeks into the game’s life (before anyone really had a chance to figure out all the systems), a lot of people jumped ship. A lot of the old BL2 twitch streamers dropped the game after that. Joltz and K6 pull thousands of viewers per stream, but they are the only BL3 streamers to do so to me knowledge, and that is because they built their community through 2-3 other Borderlands games. If you had a Bahroo or Gothalion streaming BL3 they would easily triple-quadruple to concurrent viewers on their own.

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Yes, you can’t expect everyone to be like you. That’s a hard lesson I learned in my life. Believe me once you learn to accept that, you’ll see more the other side of the coin. In the same manner you can’t expect everyone to like your BL3 choices here. Don’t expect everyone to be educated or an expert or can smile happily and be frustrated.

Edit: Sorry, I don’t deal with PMs. I had a bad experience with it. I got banned here because of PMs.

Right. That’s why I said I expect folks to. I don’t demand it. I certainly don’t expect anyone to be an expert. But I have to expect that people at least want to debate something in good faith, because that sets a baseline for discussion. And if they don’t, then my reactions change because what is possible with that discussion then changes.

For example, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with venting. Just recognise that it will be recognised as nothing more than venting. There’s no discussion there. It’s up to the developers to interpret that, as all we’ll do as players is side based on confirmation bias (as boombumr and others I think have pointed out already). At the risk of repeating myself, and understanding your experience, I’ll shut up here :slight_smile:

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A few of the negatives that I could find, for perspective.

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Complaining it’s too much like BL2, a common complaint from game journalists during launch.

Complaints about trendy writing, UI, and other changes from BL2, same as when people switched from BL1 to BL2.

Complaining BL3 didn’t innovate enough.

Again complaints about trendy writing, UI, and other changes from BL2, same as when people switched from BL1 to BL2.

Besides, the criticisms of the community always differ to game media. Notice how a few of these articles acknowledge that many players were praising the game and they didn’t get why? Keep in mind the context, back when these articles came out much of the community laughed at how disconnected these articles were complaining that BL3 still kept most of the things we liked about Borderlands. Now that people are more sour on the game the articles can seem prophetic, but at the time they were largely viewed as clickbait (poloygon and PCgamer have their fair share of borderlands related clickbait articles, I still remember the ■■■■ storm of ■■■■■■ takes on DLC 2 shudders).

Just saying that in most scenarios game journalism isn’t a good way to gauge community opinion. There was certainly a community members who echoed the sentiments in the above articles, but you didn’t see largely complaints about the game until the first nerfs came out. Then they skyrocketed.

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I don’t know much of usa critics but I remember one of my country that pretty much nailed it

http://www.gameblog.fr/tests/3496-borderlands-3-pc

translation from the article
Rushed release

More than the story, the main black point of *** Borderlands 3 *** is undoubtedly its optimization. Or rather, its lack of optimization. At the time of its release, lot of gamers experienced bugs across all platforms, although the worst in terms of optimization is the PC version. A machine that respects the minimum conditions listed by Gearbox will risk having difficulty running the game: crashes, framerate drops, lag. We hope to see updates that will improve the optimization of the game, but in these first days after its release, it is still radio silence.

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I don’t know how game media runs in other countries, but in the US they typically depend on clickbait articles to generate traffic and ad revenue for their sites. This often means shallow but controversial takes on things. A popular angle for game journalist in the US when BL3 launched was that it was the same old Borderlands formula and didn’t innovate enough for a 7 year sequel. Other complaints were basically that the game strayed too far away from BL2 and nitpicked everything from voice actor changes (Rhys and Claptrap) to the color choices (Pandora in BL3 looks much closer to BL1 then the rainbow of colors that BL2 introduced).

Not that those things are necessarily untrue, but let’s be real here: how much do you want a sequel to change from it’s predecessor? Most of the issues that the community has with BL3 aside from bugs and optimization is from the ways it departs from BL2: the overall difficult being lower, weapons being simultaneously easier and vastly more difficult to farm, lack of raids, etc…

Borderlands has up to this point (Outriders will change this in February) been the only non live-service looter shooter. It’s been able to do things none of its other competitors could. While pulling from other games can be a positive, I think it’s safe to say the community overall didn’t want a massive departure from the tried and true formula, and to fault the game for essentially remaining the way fans wanted, especially when said reviewers often have little experience with the games they’re playing and only play them for a short time, rubbed a lot of players the wrong way.

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I think it’s best to make a list what you think BL3 does the same as BL2, what it does better and what’s worse :innocent:

BL3 feels smoother to me but I still prefer playing BL2

Not going to compare story (for me 2 has the better story and villain)

I don’t know why but I played BL2 for days only quitting to sleep where I play BL3 and get bored quickly

Also the mayhem debacle is still fresh in my mind :joy:

That could be a big list for some but I will keep it simple on my end.

BL2 (BL1 & BLTPS for that matter) does not crash my console when playing either single player or multiplayer.

BL2 (BL1 & BLTPS for that matter) the split screen was done correctly with the right text size and a working UI. BL3 split screen was clearly put in as an after thought (no vertical until recently) and never tested as it should have been.

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I think I know the difference between the two (at least for me)… the progression treadmill.

In BL2 it took a LOT longer to level. Guns were broadly powered, so that you could use a gun for multiple levels and enjoy it. Basically, while there was RNG, the game was viable no matter what you got, and levelling didn’t feel too fast or too slow…it felt earned. Gear also felt earned.

For me, BL2 feels like you earn all of the things you get, whereas in BL3, it weirdly feels both like it’s too easy to level and get gear but also, that you have to keep rolling the dice to get gear (because of anointments) and that feels more like repetition than earning.

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I actually have the opposite feeling: given how steep scaling was in BL2, guns became obsolete much faster. Common advice for UVHM was to ditch your old legendaries and replace them with on-level stuff ASAP.

If you want to discuss how long Hellfire/Defiler/Anarchy lasted in BL1 or Yellowcake/OPQ in BL3, then sure. :slight_smile:

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Get out of my head! :joy::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Now that you said it I do feel that way, yes…

I feel everything in BL3 was just handed to me :sweat_smile:
Maybe I’m old-school that way haha I remember grinding for days/weeks for 1 legendary item and the time spent still felt like I made progress.

The current items on my Zane took me a few hours :sweat_smile: including farming a masher clairvoyance (which probably is a rare one?)

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So I just checked. (I’ve been blending some of my memories of BL1 and 2 and Pre-sequel, evidently).

I have all 6 VHs in BL2 levelled to the high 50s…none are 80. So my feeling comes from the levelling process, and probably has little to do with UVHM.

I managed to get 1,473 hours out of the game, though (which is probably a small number compared to many on these forums).

IIRC I played through the entire campaign and all the DLCS on all of the VHs twice. That was a lot more satisfying than “kill boss, log out, log in” repeat.

For contrast I have levelled all four VHs in BL3 twice to max level. (So 8 lvl 65s). I feel like doing the 8 was easier and less satisfying than the 6 to lower levels in BL2.

It feels like BL3 is meant to “get us to the endgame” rather than the game being about the “journey to endgame”.

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This is becoming slightly offtopic, but what the heck…

You have much more time in BL2 compared to me. I did do all content (minus OP levels) at least once and dabbled with all VHs, but for whatever reason BL2 never grabbed me as much as BL1 did (and BL3 too). I felt it was very stingy with drops and wanted me to do boring stuff to get good gear.

I guess this sort of hits where I find the games different. (and gets us back on topic) In BL2, I played for the experience, and the gear was more incidental (because I was not at end game).

In BL3, I feel like the gear is the key to enjoying the game, and they keep switching up what matters either with buffs or nerfs or new gear or new anointments or with how mayhem even works or how gear interacts with class trees.

Those changes matter much more when 90% of my playtime is at endgame as opposed to 0%.

My two (hundred) cents:

I mostly play for the narrative (storyline, characters, dialogue, setting, overall look and feel, immersion, etc.) first, the gameplay (mechanics, loot systems, skills, gear variety, drop rates, game balance, etc.) second. As such, I feel very strongly that the narrative in BL2 is superior to BL3. I also feel that the BL3 narrative is sub-par or broken, creating an even wider gap with BL2.

I will not go into details on my narrative opinions here as it would constitute an entire new thread. I will, however, mention that I think they missed the mark on Claptrap’s personality. They should have gone with the one they used in the YouTube videos. Have him really go overboard. That would have been funny and kept him more relevant, I think.

But narrative is meaningless without the heroic character at the center of the story. In other words, the vault hunters. For me it is all about the look and feel of the VH character that I am playing (I am an old school, paper and pen RPG kinda guy) as they relate to the narrative environment.

BL2 had the overall theme of “Badass”. That was something I could easily get behind as a player (“Yeah, I’m a badass!”). NPC dialogue supported the concept of Badass as something to aspire to and be proud of. There were even Badass Points as part of the endgame progression to support this. I always feel good about playing a BL2 character.

The primary theme in BL3 is “Mayhem”. I am having a hard time connecting as a character with the concept of Mayhem. Mayhem seems to be what the Twins engender in their followers and the chaos they sow throughout the galaxy. Not something that I really want to aspire to. But GBX keeps promoting the hell out of the concept of Mayhem as being central to the enjoyment of the game. So… how am I supposed to react to that as a character? Connecting to Mayhem undermines my validity as a heroic figure. But that is what GBX wants me to connect to. :crazy_face:

But BL3 has Guardian Ranks, right? OK, cool. So maybe we are supposed to feel like “Guardians”? Yeah, Guardians of the Galaxy! Woop, woop! We are here to crush those pesky Twins and their chaos-inducing Mayhem. Go Guardians! OK, so where is the supportive, validating dialogue about how being a Guardian is a good thing. Oh yeah, there is a little bit after the main game during the trials when the actual Guardian talks about how sucky it is to be a Guardian and about how you as a VH are now basically being groomed to be a slave of some sort to the Eridians. Yippee… :unamused:

So the game’s main theme support’s the bad guys and not the good guys , and the only characteristic left (Guardian) is one that the game itself warns you to steer clear of. Doesn’t make me want to rush out and roll up a character. (You could write a whole White Paper on how this situation is reflected in the treatment of Ava versus Lilith in the storyline, along with the replacement of Badass as the favorable theme - i.e. Maya’s death. If you really wanted to get in-depth, you could talk about how current Millennial cultural values are replacing the late Boomer cultural values and tie that to how the Twins and Ava represent the game’s subtext of millennial heroism. But I digress…).

Speaking of rolling up a character, BL2 had 6 different VHs to choose from (as did TPS), giving me 6 different narrative experiences. Remember, for me Narrative = Fun. BL3 has only 4 and that feels like taking a step backwards. The skill trees of BL2 made each VH feel unique and helped me to shape their personality. The extra skill trees of BL3 make each VH feel more like a character class than a unique character. I am not playing “Moze”, I am playing “a” Moze (or “a” Zane, etc.). So BL3 has less characters and less uniqueness about the characters for role play purposes. Again, not winning any awards with me with the narrative experience.

On the positive side, I feel BL3 has better overall core game mechanics. I played BL2 just recently and kept trying to slide, not as a combat strategy, just for fun. Slam is not as effective or fun as it was in TPS, but I am fine with it being present in BL3. Mantle is a great new mechanic that I wish they could retro-fit onto the previous games. The guns seem to handle easier. I am fine with the menu system.

I am mixed with regards to the new ability to fast travel without requiring a station to start from. On the one hand, it makes travel much easier. On the other hand, it takes away from the immersion and allows me to simply bypass areas that I would have had to fight my way through if I needed to reach a Fast Travel station.

The annointment system leaves something to be desired. In short, I think they went overboard and should tone it all way down, maybe as far as Luneshine from TPS. If possible, I think they should remove annointments from gear altogether and put them onto trinkets or some other swappable mechanic. I like the overall idea of annointments, I just don’t like the current implementation.

Mayhem Mode - well, I have tons of views on that in other threads. Suffice to say that I like the idea of Mayhem Modifiers, but again I think they dropped the ball on implementation. In short, I think they should separate Mayhem Modifiers from scaling progression completely.

As for drop rates, I feel that BL3 has gone too much the other way from BL2. There are far too many Legendary drops to the point where legendaries no longer feel legendary. I also think that there is a gross imbalance with legendary weapons at the higher end scaling progressions in that most are useless (but much of that could be corrected I think by reducing/removing annointments).

I would like to see Pearlescent gear make a comeback, but I have no high hopes (I would like to see more zero g and jump pads, too). And I would like to see more use of Eridium (like they did in BL2 with paying for Raid Bosses, upgrades, etc. The one vending machine by Earl I find to be pointless).

That’s all off the top of my head (and that took me over an hour or so to put together, BTW). :crazy_face:

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Thanks for saying it @Jordangold527

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