Dear Gearbox: Weapon Balancing is NOT helping this game's longevity

k lmfao

This had nothing to do with my comment.

Do you want to get to level cap, grind the best gear then just sit on your hands?

I think the problem is that they go about balancing incorrectly. When they nerfed the ION Cannon they could have taken the time to buff some of the other under performing legendaries such as the Woodblocker.

For some reason they didn’t. It also does not help that bugs are going unfixed. I am still waiting for a fix to Stainless Steel fuel bar. Also there seems to be a power difference between vault hunters they they have not addressed either. As much as I like my Iron Bear build, there is no way in hell it will ever compete with Amara.

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What post? I have no idea which one your talking about. 2 weeks is kind of a long time on the internet :wink:

Besides, I don’t see how patience, acceptance, and understanding are exclusive to what I said in my post. Once can be patient with GB, understanding of what they are doing, and accept that is their course of action AND still be frustrated and upset with them. It’s not an either/or situation.

Dare I say, most of the people offering criticism on this board feel a healthy dosage of all of those things. This game is fun, but also frustrating, as are many live service games when you see something that would make your gameplay experience better but need to wait an undetermined amount of time to see it fixed.

I think your overlooking the core of your initial post with each, ensuing reply.

Fix or the game will die, is the distillation. That is what I disagree with. And seriously, if you referenced a post I made, I’d be sure to look it up to try and clear up any confusion, rather than put a spin to my post to accommodate what I was stated as saying.

I think its healthy to keep the dev’s appraised of issues of frustration, but offhand remarks meant to convey a mood, as a threat, are not healthy. It smacks of a tantrum, intentional or not.

Anyway, done to death. Hope your weekend has gone well.

You and I have a similar view to this topic, playing games, and what has morphed into “fun” for some.

I think faceroll is the silliest form of a “challange”.

Once your there, demand it be made harder. Today I got a molten infinity,was tickled pink. Took me 3 times as long to clear a trial,but it was fun and I had to ensure I was able to kill a mob for a revive at least 8 times. I made it challenging for me. I dont think these guys care for that type of play :slight_smile:

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I don’t know which post you’re referencing, and forgive me for not going through two weeks of posting history for the sake of your point here, but I still don’t see how that is pertinent to this discussion.

Yes, the game will die if it isn’t fixed. Optimization bugs are fixes. Vertical split screen is a fix. People’s consoles crashing is a fix. There are far more things encompassed under “fixing” than just balance, many of which I’ve mention over the past two weeks, hence why I still don’t get what exactly your issue with my post is.

I can feel a mix of emotions like any person. I defend GB when I think they’re in the right, and express my doubts and frustrations when I think they can do better. That’s not a spin, it’s just being human.

Anyway, this is way off topic to the thread anyway. If you want to continue this we can take it to PMs. Otherwise have a good weekend as well.

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Just a reminder: discussion about flags or other moderation activities is off-topic and any concerns should be raised through a pm rather than posting about it in a thread. If you do post about the validity of flags etc, expect that to get flagged in turn. This is all made quite clear in the FORUM RULES. Please read them.

The funniest thing about all the build nerfing is that their excuse for doin it is for “build diversity” when subtracting builds does not create more builds. All they had to do with FL4K was buff gamma, pets, and rakk from the start and players would of shifted to other builds without touching FL4Ks skills. . They need to go back say my bad and undo the nerfs of FL4K, Moze, and bullet witch. I get things can be unintended but theres a difference between unintended and my games crashing and unintended holy sh*t this is awesome we are keeeping it. I have a horrible feeling they want us to play the game a certain way and if we aren’t playing that way that makes GB unhappy. Ppl came here because we thought it wasn’t going to be a PVE nerf fest like Destiny. Literally all my friends except for some new ones left after the FL4K and Moze nerfs.

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The FL4K nerfs were such an unnecessary knee-jerk reaction to the Youtube videos of him destroying Graveward, which has now been proven to be possible very easily with all classes. If they would have been more cautious and had give the meta any time at all to breathe, it would have been realized that FL4K’s crit build isn’t great for mobbing and really isn’t top tier at all. Looking at the current meta, there’s literally no reason why Guerillas in the Mist and Leave No Trace should not be reverted to their original values. He’d still pale in comparison to Amara and Seeing Dead Zane.

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I agree with most of this, but considering I spent 3 days farming princess tarantella for a hive with a decent anointment for fl4k during the farming event with anointments up and rare spawns at 100%, the dedicated loot drops are still a major problem.

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What exactly makes you believe that the same thing isn’t already happening here?

Let’s take the most recent example. Most players who bothered to use a heavy weapon (which, let’s be honest, wasn’t many) were using the Scourge or Hive (anointments notwithstanding). Then came the ION cannon, and players started using that because, well, it actually felt like a heavy weapon worth using. After it was over-nerfed, and it was, players (other than Moze) who bother using a RL are back to using the Scourge and Hive.

Let’s take another. After Crossroads was nerfed, who’s still using that over other SMGs like the Cutsman or Redistributor? Certainly not me. Certainly not anyone I play with. There might be some folks out there still rockin it, but they probably don’t have a decent Redistributor yet. Care to guess which SMG is going to get nerfed next?

Or how about the Flakker and the Butcher? After they both received the not-so-gentle touch of the nerf bat, most players started using the Brainstormer or the Protuberance. My Flakker and Butcher haven’t left the bank in two months.

The point here is that regardless of the game or the genre, players will naturally gravitate to the weapons and gear that give them the greatest advantage. That’s human nature at work. While I agree that the most egregious game-breaking items should be re-adjusted, that is rarely the case when it comes to nerfs, and in this game, that has absolutely not been the case for 99% of the nerfs we’ve seen. And nerfing something on the criteria that too many players are using it (which was the justification they gave for many of the first round nerfs) only pushes them to the next best thing on the list.

As I’ve said many, many times now, nerfing should be the absolute last thing that any game studio does and only after every other avenue of balance has been explored. Meaning, if something is overperforming, the better route to take is to buff things that are underperforming. This way, balance and variety is maintained, and players aren’t getting the rug yanked out from under them on gear they’ve spent countless hours farming. To be somewhat fair, Gearbox did this to an extent with the first round of massive nerfs/buffs they did a month after the game was released. But again, were those nerfs necessary? How many fewer players are still using the Flakker? Did the Hex need a 70% damage nerf? No, not that much, it didn’t. And of course we all know about the rest, so I won’t rehash all that here.

And then there’s the perception of how all this is being handled, amidst major game issues that still haven’t been fixed, such as VH skill build inequities, vertical split-screen, and Xbox X crashes, just to name a few of the bigger ones. As @Crinklec112 pointed out, nerfing guns when they haven’t even truly balanced VHs or introduced Mayhem mode 2.0 yet is like peeing in the wind. You’re just going to end up with pee on yourself.

Nerfing something that isn’t truly game-breaking is lazy balancing, and likely born out of some misguided cost benefit analysis of how much time and money they’ll save nerfing one or two guns versus buffing 50 others. It’s short-sighted savings, because in the end, it will cost them players. Not to mention the inescapable and indefensible question of why release a gun in the first place if it’s so broken that you need to nerf it a few weeks later after some YouTube videos get posted with someone speed clearing MT on M4 with it?

In the end, nobody likes having their time wasted, and when farming can take days or weeks (or longer in the case of rare spawns in this game) to get that perfect gun, most players aren’t going to be very understanding when it gets nerfed. Even if they already knew it was OP, why do you think they were farming for it in the first place? Especially in a game where relative power is subjective and it doesn’t really affect anyone else’s game, you know, because it’s a PvE game where a lot of players of varying skill happen to play solo.

Don’t believe me? Just take a look at some other games that have gone down that road and went too far in the pursuit of the holy balancing crusade, such as Destiny (Bungie) or Defiance (Trion). They hemorrhaged players as a result, and it’s no secret that the subsequent loss of players did negatively impact the longevity of those games.

So to summarize this rather verbose response, I happen to agree with the OP’s point that the way they are approaching balance in this game is not going to be healthy for it in the long run. They’ve already lost tons of players. That much is evident. Certainly, the diehard fans will stick around until the wheels fall off this thing, but for the rest of us, there will come a point where it’s just not worth the time and frustration to keep playing this game if everything we pursue via farming is subject to this Russian Roulette balancing we have now. Agree or disagree, it has and will continue to drive players away from the game.

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I’m just waiting for the day the Redistributer gets nerfed. Zane mains are going to riot lol. Im also shocked they’ve left the Cutsman alone this whole time . O_o

The issue is not the gun itself. It’s the weird interaction it gets with Zane’s barrier which amps every shot which causes EVERY shot to chain. This wouldn’t be an issue if it worked as intented (every 7th shot chaining).

I’m going to play devils advocate and say Gearbox is taking feedback from the community to much to heart and it caused the issues that BL3 is having now. Top gear is not hard to get and game play is relatively not a challenge. These two aspects is a recipe for a short game life.

I remember when Bl1 came out. I went through the game twice with 2 characters and didnt get a single legendary item. Bl2, I may have had the opportunity to get 8-10 only after completing TVHM. Bl3 has a bazillion guns and after a few days, a player can get elite level gear.

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Dear sweet mother of mercy that was so well put and thorough I just had to comment to say bravo.

Feel absolutely the same way myself about the heavy handed nerfs.

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I hope someone upstairs takes a look at this!

Zane mains will barely notice it.

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I think something that would help is in game item crafting. When you look at the weapons you can view their individual parts and it has listings for what each part grants or takes away (accuracy, recoil etc).

So, say you find something with an annointment you really want but the rest of it is meh. Then you find the same thing with the damage/element/stats you really are looking for but no or the wrong annointment. Just take the one with the right annointment and remove all the other parts and swap them over.

The parts are already there, we can view them in a menu now…would it be SO hard to simply let us swap parts around? Maybe place some kind of limit like, each weapon or item can only be modded so many times or each time you do so you have to pick a stat that gets a random roll. I’m sure there’s some way it could work out.

We had the grinder for a time and IMO it was a first step…maybe not a good one but hey, it’s in the right direction at least. I mean c’mon, the devs don’t want people using gear editors right? So why not just build one right into the game?

Then bingo…there’s some kind of nerf. Ok fine we can go in and start playing with part swapping to try and midigate the neft to some degree. Or maybe you can totally reverse the nerf but only with some rare parts or the like? GB wants people farming right? So now you can farm for those legendary parts too!

The skill nerfs, ya no way around that other than GB needs to make their minds up. I understand that they hash out a game and then release it to the world only to find that people rail against this or that. Maybe they don’t get the intended play style or feel or maybe miss something all together. Or hey maybe they have some ligit issues. Then you have to adjust something…which of course means you later have to make more adjustments.

It goes from being this fun thing you designed to having to constantly rethink the whole system and adjust things to fit what people seem to want…which is the crux of it isn’t it. WHAT do people want? You have the top X% who want this or that, then there’s the main bulk of players and they have wants ranging from wanting god play to crafting their own ammo…what do you do to make everyone happy?

Personally, I’ve seen this happen to a lot of games. And it always makes me a bit sad because (obvious bugs not withstanding), that initial release of a game (assuming it’s a polished, finished title), is the vision of the game they had in mind. A few years down the road it can be, and has been for some, a totally different game. I feel devs should stick to their guns as far as this goes. Yes, of course fix broken things but nerfing? No…just make the items the way you like and release them. If they are over powered then hey, maybe someone designing it >wanted< it over powered.

Maybe it’s a poor design? Maybe the devs in question never thought people would use the item in this or that way to be able to one shot bosses? Sure, makes sense…but that means something needs addressing there other than clamping down on that item. Here’s a crazy idea…how about changing the boss HP pool or give them buffs or debuffs? Keep that insane damage build, we’re going to just make the bosses harder.

It kind of bums me out that the game is a farming simulator and has become grindy because of this. There’s always been some of it in past titles to be sure but this seems like more to me. It feels like, in setting the bar high for end game the items you need give you that faint % bonus that pushes you over into what is needed to take on a given boss. But that doesn’t mean that should be the ONLY gear and skill combo to solo that boss. Each character build should have an even chance for clearing any given boss. Ok so maybe you have to play around with gear or combos or timing this or that just right but it should be doable.

I dunno, it’s frustrating on different levels. But you know, all that said I do still love the game. And I think the good parts are often overshadowed by topics like this. The game is still fun for me and I appreciate that the writing is gravitating back to the first game a bit. The graphics are really good and the sound is as well. The play style is fast paced enough to make fights fun but not so much it feels like a speed run all the time. And the voice acting is back to being great again even though it’s been shuffled a bit here and there.

So, I dunno…add a gun mod system in game and I think a lot of these farming issues would be solved. Or at the very least people wouldn’t mind farming so much if they knew they could build what they liked with the stuff that drops.

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