Deathless Moze and Tenacious Defense anti-synergize completely

I can’t help but feel that this skill should operate differently. Obviously with the Bloodletter mod, all 5 or 6 of her shield buffing skills, and Desperate Measures (her best damage boost) being based off of missing health, her meta build should always be running at 1 hp with a massive shield.

The description of Tenacious Defense reads “Whenever Moze’s shield is fully depleted, she instantly restores a portion of her shield, and her Gun Damage is increased for a short time.” It sounds like the perfect capstone to this build, but if you’re at 1hp and your shield breaks it won’t kick in till you’re already downed, which is pretty pointless. The gun damage boost isn’t even as good as a skill 2 tiers closer than it. Desperate Measures can give +100% gun damage, Thin Red Line exists, Deathless artifacts exist, her best COM is designed to ignore health completely, and 95% of her SOR tree has incredible synergy with all of these.

So how, then, is the capstone of this entire tree going to be the only skill that is rendered entirely useless by this build? At the very least, they are not properly understanding what the word ‘instantly’ means (same can be said about the Stop-Gap shield). It literally defeats the entire purpose of filling out the whole tree. When Phalanx Doctrine is already boosted by my mod anyways, thats 6 whole skill points that I might as well use to get me down to Redistribution! It’s infuriating how close it comes to being totally well-designed.

Please tell me I’m not the only one who feels this way.


What if I told you there was more than one build for Moze.

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Two things here:

The damage bonus being less than a skill that only buffs damage is sensible, otherwise it would significantly lower desparate measure’s effectiveness, due to how additive damage works. The other side of this is the defensive effect that makes up for the lack of damage in the skill.

That being said, I understand it’s annoying that you can’t run deathless. But have you considered that it works without deathless? With 2/3 in Thin Red Line alone, you maintain your health-gate and this capstone will ALWAYS work in that case. My personal set-up is to run 2/3 in TRL, with Tenacious Defense and the Re-Charger. This synergises quite well as TD refreshes CD on a full shield re-fill (which the Re-Charger does) and if you drop your shield before the Re-Charger’s effect comes off of cooldown, then you get a back and forth between TD and the Re-Charger’s effect which I find results in me never dying.

I know it’s annoying to lose damage from Desparate Measures in order to get this to work - but try to think a bit further than “gotta max my DPS!”

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Yeah I get that. And the Re-charger is a good shout for sure. Its just frustrating that the capstone of the tree seems to play to different strengths than all the other skills in the same tree. My current build is fine and I have a few that I switch between, this is more about how the skill itself operates.

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I feel what you are saying. But if you run a non-deathless/bloodletter build then every single skill in the tree plays into it perfectly. I feel like Vampyr is directed at the deathless/bl build and SOR tree is more for not running it.

Though i havnt tried it, the redcard shield would be perfectly suited for this capstone on a deathless build

Thats not my point, I use plenty of different build on Moze and have no problem with them. I just think that the capstone of this tree doesn’t work well enough to spend the skill points in, at least in my opinion. Short Fuse gives free splash damage and works well with the rest of the tree (at least it did before that patch and I think it will be fixed). Likewise Forge is great for BM. It just seems like TD is weak and I don’t think it works super well.

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By having the capstone be something that works without deathless you are free to use the shield tree for other builds. If you use a deathless you have to run a bloodletter. By having skills that don’t work with deathless you can still have a variation of a SoR build and use a different COM or relic. If everything in the tree catered to one relic and one COM it reduces options in the tree for those that don’t want to use them.


good points, and it wasn’t right to say it anti-synergies completely because I know it works with a lot of stuff, I just think it lacks the same utilities as the other ones. Again thats just my opinion and how I like to play Moze.

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I actually feel it is the opposite. Vampyr scales with missing health so 20% ends up being very small for a massive shield, which is why people need one with cloning/MIRV/bounce/etc. Stacking health actually helps the healing, even though you will still have 1hp. Lately I’ve been using a BM/SoR build that uses a transfusion to heal. I’m still limited in my grenade options but I also can use non splash weapons. And because my healing is from the transfusion and not Vampyr I can use a front loader with turtle parts and stack the shield.

Not saying one way is better, but there are more options than this forum gives Moze credit for.

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Good points.

Agree completely with TC. It’s not unreasonable to think someone going down that tree just might get all 3 points of thin red line and bring his health down below health gate.

He might not even know about healthgate at all. I didnt until I read it here. Not everyone is going to know this and take the cap stone at its face value and not know that it doesn’t work if you take 3 points into thin red line or if you use deathless relic .

The obvious solution is to make it proc even with 1hp left, but who am I to say…


Could use 1 of these… sorta makes sence with SoR being the red tree…