Debate it: The Taiidan were the original canonical race

Ship Design: Taiidan ships, especially their strike craft, appear to be designed for atmospheric flight, reflecting that the exiles have had experience with this and not so much with space. The Kushan, on the other hand, have more practical designs that reflect their experience in space combat. Their blocky designs are also more boring, reflecting how their society is very militarized and stagnant. Their default color scheme of grey further reflects this.

Mission 13: There are valid theories on both sides for the Kushan cruiser hulks, so I won’t cover that. The still powered support frigate, on the other hand, is way too close to what would canonically be an independently invented design to have been invented 4000 years prior and could not have sat there, still powered, for 4000+ years. Clearly it was abandoned there comparatively recently by the Kushan empire. There is no other workable explanation for it.

Ending Cutscene: A wrecked taiidan scout is displayed next to a wrecked Kushan interceptor. As, other than the kamikaze scouts launched by the emperor, the empire is never seen using scouts, the taiidan scout would have to belong to the player. Also, a large number of Kushan ships are displayed in another portion of the cutscene with a single Taiidan heavy corvette placed centrally from the viewer’s viewpoint. The large numbers of Kushan ships reflect their numerical superiority resultant of them formerly belonging to the empire while the taii corvette has attention drawn to it due to its position and how it’s the only taii ship visible. This clearly shows that they were intended canonically.

HW2: While for the most part HW2 designs are completely different from HW1 designs, the engines for the Hiigarans are of a Taiidan style and those for the Vaygr are of a Kushan style. As the remnants of the empire were absorbed into the Vaygr, this makes the most sense if the Kushan were the empire and the Taiidan the exiles. Also of note is that the Hiigarans have Defense Field Generator Frigates, which the Taiidan, not the Kushan had in HW1.

The only reason Kushan are considered canon is because Barking Dog made it so and Relic didn’t want to make Cataclysm non-canon. Just about everything points to the Taiidan being the exiles.

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It’s totally cool to debate here, in fact, it’s encouraged. However, I would ask that we avoid open argument and conflict and approach debates from a diplomatic point of view.

I’ve edited the title of this thread to reflect this. Thanks!

Kushan design reflects the fact that they are in space while designing their ships and they are “boring” because they need to be practical. They don’t have an empire to provide resources nor do they have much time for design.
Ships in M13 should just be considered bad level design:)
Kushans got to Hiigara with about 600k people. The planet already has millions, billions even, of Taiidan living on it apparently. Seems inevitable that many aspects of their culture and technology would mix and combine into designs that resemble both in some ways.

I take it we’re just going to ignore all the art assets, concept art, stuff in the manual, the ingame cutscenes, and all that which says flat out that the R1 race, the Kushan, are the Exiles, and the R2 are not.

In other words you don’t have any way to counter this point so you’re disregarding it.

[quote=“Jondu, post:3, topic:93329”]
Kushan design reflects the fact that they are in space while designing their ships and they are “boring” because they need to be practical. They don’t have an empire to provide resources nor do they have much time for design.

Kushans got to Hiigara with about 600k people. The planet already has millions, billions even, of Taiidan living on it apparently. Seems inevitable that many aspects of their culture and technology would mix and combine into designs that resemble both in some ways.
[/quote] Valid points, but that still doesn’t change the amount of evidence from homeworld 1 and the fact that the vaygr are still using Kushan style engines.

[quote=“illcadia, post:4, topic:93329, full:true”]
I take it we’re just going to ignore all the art assets, concept art, stuff in the manual, the ingame cutscenes, and all that which says flat out that the R1 race, the Kushan, are the Exiles, and the R2 are not.
[/quote] Do you really want to speak of concept art? That’s a taii scout. On kharak. Why would an imperial scout be on kharak? Knowing how ADMs work anything in the atmostphere would have been incinerated so the only reason an imperial scout would be there would be because the pilot was suicidal.

Is there any concept art that flat out confirms the Kushan to be canonical? Most of what I see labels them as R1/R2. I don’t even see Kushan/Taiidan labels on most of it.

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As it turns out, I’m wrong, but you are also still wrong. I went over my original HW1 manual and the various story notes for the different ship classes, and it looks like within the manual at least, both races were represented. The picture you linked is there, as is a picture of the banana which is labeled as ‘mothership prototype’ (it’s not quite the same as the modern banana).

Reading through the old descriptions, every now and then one will reference the journey coward on a taiidan ship, and then do the same thing on a Kushan ship.

That said in all the concept art there’s zero pictures of the R2 mothership in the scaffolding- it’s always the R1 mothership. Similarly, the R1 race uses the angel moon iconography, while the R2 race… doesn’t, which points towards it being the R1 race.

As for your suggested ‘didn’t want to piss off cata fans’ theory, HW2 completely ignored Cata as non-canonical, pretty much. It pissed off all the Cata fans when it launched and there was zero reference to any of it, so that’s not really a good excuse for them choosing the banana over the cleaver.

EDIT: One thing though: In the manual and the story stuff, the Kushan planet is called Kharak, and the Taiidan planet is called Taiidan. That work for you?

subjective. i find the kushan ships much more original, imaginative, unique, and creative than f-18 in space.

also, you make a lot of jumps to conclusions and assumptions like “that’s taiidan scout on kharak”. first of all, it could be another planet. just because it’s tan doesn’t mean it’s kharak. there are deserts on earth as well. it’s not kharak.

secondly, the desert environment could be chosen for the contrast it provides. an aesthetic decision.

thirdly, it could have been used to scout locations for least defenses, so the atmosphere scorcher could be launched successfuly.

the evidence for kushan=hiigaran is vast, the evidence to the contrary is a bunch of unproven theories and random baseless assumptions.

This makes absolutely no sense. The Kushan were the default race in Homeworld. All of Homeworld’s original marketing (which was created before Cataclysm was even a glint in Sierra’s eye) focuses on the Kushan and the Kushan mothership.

The Taiidan were a heavily militarized empire, and their ship designs reflect that: weaponry is clearly visible, and the ship designs overall read as more ‘aggressive’ than the Kushan designs.

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And all of the cutscenes have taiidan markings during “imperial transmissions”

The opposite makes a lot more sense. The Taiidan have been a united intergalactic force for a few thousand years and their scout/interceptor ship designs reflect a very solid multipurpose atmospheric and space combat fighter craft. This fighter is well rounded to meet combat operations in a variety of atmospheric conditions and obviously deep space theatres. Whereas the Kushan design philosophy centers like you said around a space combat-only centric space craft. They could not have a military stagnation because they had no prior knowledge of their civilization until after their arrival on Hiigara, so their ship design philosophy centers around the Mothership defense and the mission to the Homeworld in deep space.

Yeah not anywhere close to accurate or factually true in any published documentation related to Homeworld.

Say what you want about whether Relic originally intended this (before releasing HW1), but don’t put this on Barking Dog. Clearly, from the artwork of HW1 box, the Kushan Mothership is prominently featured, so Kushan was (at launch) the intended main race for the game.

I had the game of the year box.
That featured Taiidan on the front, not Kushan.

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I always played as Taiidan, their aesthetic looked more appropriate for the ragtag band of desert nomads.

Also consider the Kushan space Banana would make a better flagship/palace for a decadent space empire, it has a huge monumental bridge for observing things.
The Taiidian mothership is on the other hand literally just a box lacking any kind of decoration.

I’m waiting for the Taiidan to be playable, officially or through a mod, before I buy this game.

Definitive proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASYAZwjcUY

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Incidentally, Yes was also removed from the remastered edition.

Just where in the manual is the planet of Taiidan mentioned? I don’t remeber that coming up.

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I don’t think the Taiidan planet is called anything, it’s just Higgara.

Also, there were two audio tracks, one for each race.

Turanic Raiders, servants of the Kushan are arriving. They must not learn of our contact.

Is what the Bentusi would say if you were playing as Taiidan.

I don’t think ship asethetics is anything to go by. I could say that the Taiidani ships reflect a tribal look and strong culture, with wings and fins suggesting the designers are used to working in an atmosphere, while the Kushan ships look like industrial products of a brutally utilitarian civilization who has long ago optimized for space warfare. Or I could say that the Taiidani ships show aggression and intimidation with extravagant details, while the Kushan ships look like the products of someone strapped for resources and putting together the most no-frills ships possible.

Iconagraphy is no guide, if we’re going back to HW1, the angel moon was the symbol of the exiles and what is now considered the taiidani logo was the imperial logo, and either side could fill either shoes.

Ship fluff is no guide, both sets of original fluff only work if their respective faction are the exiles.

Box art isn’t really a guide, as marketing is unlikely to be strongly tied to the original intention, even if it’s aware of it. And some of the boxes showed a kushan fleet while others showed a taiidan fleet.

The default isn’t really an indication, as they could have just had the buttons arranged alphabetically.

I believe there is a line in HW1 that always refers to the empire as the Kushan, though I haven’t checked recently so my memory could be playing tricks there. And then we have the karos wrecks. If we put aside production realities for a second(they’re likely there just because they’re discarded early models that they already had,) then in universe… if you’re kushan, the implication is that somehow the Kushan after their exile produced ships very visually like the ones they produced 3000 years ago. If you’re Taiidani, they could just be outdated imperial models. The latter case is plausible, the former case is really stupid.

So in-game evidence is pretty slim, but imo points to the taiidani being the exiles.

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At very least, removing the Taiidan as a playable race was a mistake.

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It’s mentioned on the ship description pages in the game of the year edition of the manual (which had added fluff bits).