Dedicated Loot Pools Miss The Mark

It’s one missed opportunity out of several I’ve always lamented.

At a minimum dropping an armed and shielded enemy should yield a weapon, shield and maybe a grenade. And I get it that lootsplosions are fun but if Gigamind drops a Cutsman, a Recurring Hex, a Sawbar, and a Smart Gun in a single run, why was I not dodging the spider turrets, grenade splash, and flaming ordinance he would have been throwing at me? Instead he’s the same old pushover. Badasses and named enemies have presumably earned their badassery so, like the player, they should maybe be better at min-maxing.

Also, WHY CANT I BE ARMORED? but that’s for another topic!

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to be fair, Gigamind is the most min-max character in the game ! x) but yeah, totally with ya. another layer of randomness and mayhem. imagine CoV badass rocket launcher with a scourge or hive or mongol :stuck_out_tongue: hah !

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The farming grind is one way to the play the game, but it’s definitely not everyone’s cup of tea. In BL2 and TPS I only did the short farms (Lee, Boll, and a couple of the easy ones in TPS whose names escape me). I’d rather spend time mobbing through areas with friends or starting yet another character from scratch. Fortunately, this is equally possible in all the Borderlands games unless you have an obsessive compulsion to do everything in the game at every level. (Eg OP levels in BL2 are entirely optional - no-one should ever feel they have to do them simply because they exist. Same with Mayhem Modes - do or do not, as long as you enjoy.)

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i’m almost certainly guilty of this one. it annoys me when i can’t do content in a game because i choose to avoid random matchmaking or resort to glitches. in the case of mayhem i view(ed) mayhem as a progression ladder. increase your power until you can climb up to the next level. i feel this is not the case with M4 currently. but i assume that’s mostly because of how it affected tripple health bar enemies.

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My exact point. You shouldn’t have to keep a bad mechanic or idea in your game just because it’s part of its “legacy.” It’s not the grinding that isn’t fun, I’d run arenas or maps all the time. It’s farming a boss with 6+ immunity phases 100+ times for a dedicated drop with random stats and a low drop rate.

Some people like toiling for the sake of toiling but I’m not one of them. I like toiling to appreciate the beauty of my finished project.

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I want to add a link to this thread that is similar in topic but combats a different issue

I agree with everything @GimmickBuilds said. Loot drops are so bad it feels bugged. Like dedicated loot pools aren’t effected by Mayhem Modes. Which is crushing because back at launch, drops rates were so good. The marketing advertised it as such. Then the devs nerfed all of it post launch. Classic bait and switch

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I just got an “oh snap” moment reading your post.

Because i remembered the reason why they don’t drop their weapons starting from BL2. I remember 'cause gearbox did some Q&A in a dev diary where they took question from the previous Q&A’s thread and answered them. And they did answered to a question i asked and even if don’t remember exactly if what i ask was about that (i think it was) or if it was someone else but they did answer to this topic the week they answered my question.

And the reason why the foes do not drop their weapons was because it would become too chaotic when ennemies could destroy you 'cause they used legendary weapons. Due to how the scaling was in BL2, a badass with 2 or 3 more level than you and a very good weapon would become so strong that it would create random difficulty spikes making it impossible for gearbox to control how the fights should develop… and the player would become stuck while leveling against “unbeatable” opponents

Basicaly, that system made the game too hard for the players and more importantly, uncontrolable for the dev to design and control the player experience.

It would become too hard and chaotic. Loots would be great but the game would become too hard and chaotic.

I know, i’m repeating myself a lot. But do you know how “mayhem level” was translated in french ?

“Niveau de chaos.”

And BL2 foes dropping their weapons was too hard and chaotic.

I’m gonna let that sink in for a minute.

Do you feel the anger yet ? No ? Let it sink for another minute while you boot up bullet sponge UVHM or M4.

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i’ve no idea how that would be a problem while leveling honestly. the drop rates wouldn’t change because they carry it and use it against us. during leveling, in bl3 and certainly in bl2 - legendary drops are quite rare during PT1 from random enemies. but since RNG, it’s technically possible. i’m not gonna pretend i know better than them in regards to these things but i do find it sound odd.

in bl3, are legendaries even that good that they would carry on their own? it feels to me that annointments and skills is what sets them apart so the linear damage scaling the enemies have in this game wouldn’t make them to crazy? it’s my assumption anyway since i’ve have no idea how stuff like this actually work :stuck_out_tongue: but man, do i wish this were a thing do, as i said earlier - it adds to the mayhem and crazyness that mayhem is. seems like a logic thing really.

Here’s the mentioned article about the “not dropping” change from BL1 to BL2:

https://www.gearboxsoftware.com/2013/09/inside-the-box-evolution-of-loot/

Worth a careful read, as there was a LOT going on with the BL1 loot system that could make things go south in a hurry for the player.

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Looks at obnoxiously opaque particle effects, enemies shooting 17 rockets a second and throwing 9 split merv grenades, annointed enemies with 17 attacks each, teleporting enemies, contextless immunity phases, spawning enemies right on top of you…

Yeah, I don’t think they care about whether it’s too chaotic anymore, at least in BL3, so I don’t see any reason to not link drops to what the enemy has. I probably couldn’t tell what was going on anyway in between the particle effects.

(Also, there’s no reason a weapon’s scaling can’t be different when an AI is holding it. Saying it would need to work exactly like it does in a player’s hand is a cop-out that sounds good to a non-dev but is just a way to avoid the question)

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Basicaly, because of that:

When the rarity is chosen it also applies modifiers to the damage of the weapon. Each rarity level is like adding 2 levels worth of damage to the weapon. So if you have a level 10 green weapon its damage is on par with a level 12 white weapon. A level 10 blue weapon’s damage is like a level 14 white weapon, or a level 12 green weapon, and so on.

[…]

Once the damage scale was increased and we now had control over drop rates an interesting side effect occurred. Since they used the same pool for their gun as they did for the drops there was now a 1 in 10 chance that an enemy was shooting a gun 2 levels better than you. There was a 1 in 100 chance they were shooting a gun 4 levels higher than you, and a 1 in 1000 chance that you just got one-shot by a chumpy bandit marauder wielding a super powerful purple.

And Mann42 perfectly resume why it’s a bad solution to not have them use and drop weapons. You can simply add a debuff to foes damage that depend on the rarity of the weapon they have.

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again, no idea how things are calculated behind the scenes and how stuff like this works but.

wouldn’t it be possible if say, weapon stats and level were ignored. instead, enemy damage is based on weapon type + enemy level. wouldn’t that mean a shotgun would do the same damage, regardless of which shotgun it spawns with? etc etc. obviously it’s more complex than that though.

We don’t want that, we wnt mayhem. BL1 loot system would make a great mayhem mode for BL3.

I think the point is, if Borderlands’ loot system / gameplay loop was better designed, these activities could be one in the same. When I play Diablo, running Greater Rifts is ALSO the best way to farm. When I play Destiny 2, running raids, playing PvP, doing strikes, Gambit, etc. is ALSO the best way to farm. Other looters try and make it so that the best way to acquire gear is to just play the game normally, Borderlands 3 does not. The real head scratcher is that they already have some of the solutions in place - like Proving Grounds and CoS, but outside of Slaughtershaft the rewards are terrible. Why on earth would you create these supposedly “end game” gameplay options, but not balance the drops in a way that promotes actually playing them? It’s such a blatantly obvious thing to do that I cannot understand how any developer could miss it.

This is something I have said as well since day 1. In addition to cranking up the drops, give each PG and CoS specific legendary drops / rewards so that you have motivation to do all of them. Again, this is SO. DAMN. OBVIOUS.

100% agreed. People that say “that’s how Borderlands is!” when discussing it’s archaic loot system totally miss the point. You need to innovate and improve to stay relevant, just like with anything. Plus, Borderlands 2’s system wasn’t great even in 2012, people just have rose colored glasses. The online community modded the hell out of that game to fix problems and also acquire perfect rolls on their gear, because actually finding it in the game was nearly mathematically impossible. That’s not good design, and people that defend BL2’s loot system always forget that cheating was such a rampant issue due to this design problem.

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Considering all the bugs we now have since the last patch, how do we even know if the drop rates are working as intended? Maybe they are another bug. It’s another reason I’m on break from the game until they patch the patch.

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The Borderlands series has, as it went along, felt like a game designed by people that don’t play video games. Nobody wants to kill the same enemy 100 times in a row to get one item.

The drop rate for the “dedicated” items in the dedicated loot pools should be higher than other items. If you are trying to get a class mod, or whatever… that class mod should drop frequently enough that you can make many runs to get the rolls you want.

Farming is fun if you are getting rewarded. Farming fruitlessly for hours is boring. Gaming 101.

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I know I don’t want to do that. But I know enough folks who’ve done exactly that - and more times than 100 - to realise that this generalization is exactly that. As always, YMMV etc.

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Yeah I have to chime in here. I do enjoy killing certain things over and over. Traunt for example I just love farming him. What I don’t like is barely being rewarded for doing so on high difficulties.

I also ran the Heck loop probably 300 times or more, can’t really say but I did it a TON and I did it again, because I love farming Traunt bosses and he was the most challenging(fun) one.

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It would sting slightly less if loading times improved. On console, you spend like half your time looking at the incredibly long load screens.

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If they do implement a “re-roll” system, do you feel it should be expensive? As in 400-500 eridium, and also the chance you won’t get the exact roll ya want. I would like to see it. Just don’t know what the “cost” will be. Heard other’s mention the grinder in TPS… Seems like it could work in theory but people would just sit in “Wherever” and throw items in and grind it then quit if they didn’t get the roll they wanted; for hours on end I’m sure. Hopefully they add something. Love when things get added if it isn’t perfectly implemented it could be adjusted over time.

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