Delay release, rework entire game

Battleborn Open Beta Open Beta General Discussion/Feedback
#41

It’s not artificial to be perfectly balanced. It’s artificial to add unpredictable or random occurring events that cause a swing to go one way or another. It’s artificial to design a character to do better against an other character.

These are things game designer DO because perfect balance is often boring. There are a lot of game design books that discuss perfect balance in games.

Take a look at the game Soccer (football). The game itself is perfectly balanced. If both teams are perfect and neither team makes a mistake then the game will end always with a 0-0. You can’t factor in luck in this hypothetical situations because we are trying to discuss balance and skill theory.

You start to get winners and losers when you have equally matched teams, in the sense of each team has the same exact rules to how their players should behave, but the individual players are able to predict the actions of the other players and force a mistake.

You shouldn’t lose a match because of the rules of the game say your character can’t beat another character because it was designed that way. It should be that each character has perfectly equal opportunity to win as long as they are playing well and not making mistakes.

Another example of a perfectly balanced game is a Staring Contest. 2 rules: Don’t look away, don’t blink. The first person to break the rules loses. Simple. The skill in this game comes from the individuals and not from the core mechanics.

#42

-Well, i suppose this is a disagreement because I feel that melee characters are on an if not even then at least close enough playing field and that the literal distinction you made to some degree make the difference between melee and ranged.

  • Melee is close range but that is because they are…close range…ranged characters can shoot close or far but I believe for most ranged chracters the best DPS is usually mid-long range. I think that melee characters do more damage to some degree also. at least consistently and it is easier for them to do so within limits.

  • I don’t know if it is a struggle since I have mainly my own experience and I can’t speak for the other hundreds of thousand other players but as long as I am near an enemy as a melee character I can attack them. Sure enough, there are better areas to attack but in the case of that 2nd to last boss before ISIC I usually just aim my attacks higher and everything is fine.

  • Someone already said it but melee characters can score critical hits and because they are closer I believe they can do it easier and more frequently because of att spd increases.

  • I want to say yes and no because it really depends on items, plus skills upgraded, but in general let us say they aren’t isn’t that why a good amound if not nearly all melee chracters have some skill to dash or CC to counter the distance+SPD of ranged characters has over melee?

  • I think that all melee chracters have some form of augments that gives then life steal or health regen thus making them harder to kill or in exchange for having to go up closer to enemies to kill them and usually are able to take more damage because of it. So I would say with additional health and health regen plus other I prob didn’t mentoin they have more protections.

  • ranged chracter taking damage in a fight isn’t optional unless they just do not show to the fight. On that point, it isn’t optional to the extent that range chracters themselves can decide when they will take damage without any consideration of anything else. Of course, I think you may have meant somewhere along the lines that if a ranged chracter can sit back and snipe they won’t take any damage unless they decide to move up, but the situation is only what they can see and is not entirely up to themselves.

  • Well, sniping is a term usually associated with ranged damage so techincally no. Unless melees have a ranged skill that allows them to do so.

  • Again as I said above this is usually because of the difference between being a ranged and melee chracter and all of the advantages and disadvantages that come along with that.

  • Hmm, Since we are going into skills would you say that there are more Ranged AOE skills or Melee AOE skills? Which one also deals more damage would you say? (Because my opinion is limited and I can again only based this on what I have seen and played as and against) But also in the end which is better is just my opinion and so other than that I can’t refute what you said with anything factual.

  • This last part isn’t nessarily true I personally evolve along whichever path suited me for a particular match. Also, I can’t say it is not wrong since I don’t have any data to say otherwise.

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#43

But also on this reply of balance , as you guys said it’s artificial and it is only a theoretical balance as balance its the ideal situation. But games do not usually have symmetrical balance and are usually asymmetrically balanced because as you said it would be boring if I attack and you attack we both deal the same damage and then all that comes down to is who moves first as the fastest will win. So when you take out any outside factors and variable such as humans and etc etc everything is “balanced” but once you move, once you decide to choose what you like the balance is broken and you start to essential enter the line back and forth depending on your actions.

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#44

I can’t argue your opinions against my facts. My facts still stand. I am not going to write up all the variables to prove the advantages of ranged vs melee and I will only leave you with this:

War was originally fought with tooth and nail… then someone threw a rock.

#45

Well that completely fine because in the end my opinions are just that opinions and in the face of facts I can do nothing but bow out and say I’m wrong. I’m honestly happy to do so for anyone as long as they can back the “facts” with reliable data. And you’d do not necessarily have to anyone can do it and you can link it or show it. Because in the end Even if everyone says the earth is flat I’ll believe it’s round because of the data that was shown to me, until otherwise someone can show me data that shows me a flat earth that proves the current data to be wrong.

#46

I guess this will be my last attempt at convincing you but I don’t say you’re wrong, exactly… you just seem to be missing a point. The data is available and should just be common sense. Your analogy about the world being flat is backwards. I am arguing it’s round you are arguing it’s flat. I am saying that if I have a gun and you have a knife and we are of equal skill with our preferred weapons I will almost always win.

In fact, Deadliest Warrior did a lot of study on this premise about the effectiveness of ranged vs melee weapons.

In fact, our history of weaponry and war proves what I am trying to convey. Many battles were won through-out history specifically because of range advantage. The thing of the Mongols with their bows or the USA with the Atomic Bomb or the development of various projectile weapons through-out history or the development of chemical weaponry (a form of ranged AOE).

#47

I see I see, well although I think you misinterpret what I’m trying to convey because it would be more like from your example that you are telling me that the earth is flat while I’m saying it is not flat but it’s round based on previously obtained data and knowledge, but if you were to ever prove to me its flat with more reliable data I would say it’s flat. but its fine, but I generally try to keep video games, and real life separate because although you can compare the two the differences in the variable absolutes in video games and the variable uncertainty in real life are too great to honestly compare seriously.

#48

Oh yeah but if you meant range characters at farther ranges are advantage then yes I agree,

#49

Opinions =/= facts

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#50

if you know how to play you should ALWAYS be able to force a draw or win. Anything else is unbalanced or plain unfair.

That’s not… necessarily true. Perfect balance sounds good in theory, but it’s nearly impossible, and pretty boring.

Battleborn is a really complex game. There’s a lot of objectives and things to keep in mind- killing enemy players and minions, gathering shards and then choosing whether to spend them on gear or structures, where to be at what time to contribute to a fight, etc. To give every single character the exact same capability in each of these tasks is really difficult, and that’s if their skillset is kept similar. As it stands now, a majority of characters are quite specialized- Marquis is good for only killing players, minions, and structures from far away while Caldarius is good only for running around really fast to outnumber enemies in fights and blitz neutral shards. Caldarius is naturally good against Marquis even if they both play well- his mobility denies Marquis the ability to sit back from far away and snipe, and makes him really hard to kill. This denies Marquis a fair fight, but in turn Marquis can deny a fair fight to other characters who can’t counter his advantages. Think of the game not like tic-tac-toe, but like rock paper scissors, which in my opinion is a lot more fun.

#51

Ok, I think we are getting on the same page now.

I think Melee characters SHOULDN’T have a disadvantage in a game because it can be controlled and they can be adjusted to provide the balance.

Back on topic to my original post as well, the map layouts give advantages to Ranged characters more than melee characters because their isn’t a lot of cover to advance upon ranged character. Usually in games that want to allow close range to be more advantageous would provide areas where it is more viable to use CQC, like corners.

I think melee can be handled better in this game by elevating the center of the map giving it a center peak so that ranged characters can’t just shoot across the map. Also, there should be places of concealment for ambushing characters and staying out of LOS.

The fact though is that video games are a simulation of real life with creative flair but have the convenience of controllable variables.

I just think more can be done for melee characters to give them a competitive edge rather than just having them perform as easy targets for ranged characters who know how to use cover, range, and LOS.

I think that melee characters should be able to use the same LOS mechanics to some degree to improve against their disadvantages.

One way to do this is add an ability to all melee character that whenever they are hard-aimed onto by ranged opponent the opponent immediately begins taking damage. Forcing ranged characters to disengage on melee targets occasionally or at the very least make them use the soft aiming mechanic which causes reduced accuracy.

#52

I honestly didn’t have a problem going solo with EL DRAGON (I have to type his name in CAPS.) against ISIC Magnus

#53

I had already made the point of it being boring. Also, tic-tac-toe was an example of balance. Rock, Paper, Scissors is actually a better example for this style of game and thanks for bringing it up.

In this case: The game only has 3 picks and 1 move to decide a winner. If you just pick Rock all the time your opponent can just pick Paper all the time and win. One problem with this game in that is if your favorite option is Rock and you always want to pick Rock then you will never win against players who always pick Paper. It sucks but it’s part of that games integral design and wouldn’t be able to work without it.

Battleborn is not that game though… Because there are other variables that makes some character choices better than others in all cases because of map layout. Rock, Paper, Scissor has no such advantages but if we were to say, “If Rock can stand in X location then Paper can’t beat Rock.” Then Rock becomes the most viable choice and the game becomes unbalanced. That is more the case for this game, in which has been my point from the start.

#54

That’s entirely true, and while it may not be entirely ideal, that’s just the reality of any moba and most games that draw from moba elements. Counterpicks and a balanced team are core parts of a moba game- if Rock can hold x position perfectly then Paper can’t beat Rock, and that is indeed unbalanced, but only in a 1v1 scenario between Rock and Paper. There is also of course Scissors present, who can force Rock out of position x so that Paper can beat it, thus rewarding the team that has both Paper and Scissors, and defeating the unbalanced problem.

The game can be seen as just a web of separate matchups that favor one side or the other, but it’s such an intricate web that each individual matchup, especially in a game like battleborn where a currency mechanic plays less of a role, has little effect on the overall web. That to me is one of the things that makes mobas great- sure you might be having a hard time beating something that seems unbalanced, but later in the game teamwork can trump that and so it becomes really hard to have something that’s problematically unbalanced or uneven, especially in organized play.

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#55

I completely agree but that’s not the case currently for this game. The fact is right now there are certain characters such as Oscar Mike and Orendi who if they are on your team, assuming perfect skill, they will beat every other match up. Add in Galilea and Marquis… Then your team is unreasonably op and can devastate the battlefields currently presented against any match other than the exact same team.

My ideal team is: Ambra or Miko, Galilea or El Dragon or Rath, Marquis, Oscar Mike, and Orendi

I don’t believe there are any stronger compositions currently. Marquis, Oscar Mike, and Orendi should be on every team with at least Ambra or Miko. Then pretty much any tank because they are practically all the same except for El Dragon who may have been nerfed from his OP state.

I think my point is more that there are those three that seem to be the best choices only because of the type of game this is… An FPS/Moba…

Both Oscar Mike and Orendi have the ability to escape, regenerate shields quickly, and extremely powerful AOE. This makes guerrilla tactics the most viable choice of play for these two. Combine that with the Sniping ability of Marquis and they are just unstoppable, hypothetically.

Adding in Ambra with her Legendary and Galilea teaming to be the front line with their healing, damage, and tanky-ness…

It becomes more obvious how this team composition just brutalizes the rest, currently and hypothetically.

Just looking at the abilities and potentials, I would be running this composition always if I had a well enough team.

#56

Melee being useless is such a BS statement, sry …

Within the Beta I have seen countless Phoebes, Raths or Galileas dominating the Multiplayer and carrying their teams.
As I already mentioned in another Thread in one of our last matches we had a team that was COMPLETELY melee chars and guess what? … we wrecked the other team easily.

The fact that you didn´t even know about melee critical hits goes to show that what you continue to call a fact seems to be no more than personal bias.

Yeah, and what´s that all of a sudden? … you realize that three of those that you would want in ideal team are melee characters? :confused: … while within the same thread you claim that melee is on a massive disadvantage. Quite contradictory if you ask me. ( I realize you would want just one of those melees but you have never ever done enough science -if any- to assume that 3 ranged + 1 melee are noticeably superior to something like 2 ranged + 2 melee … this is just another untenable assertion of yours! )

Another interesting “fact” there …
Well, as someone who played THE ■■■■ out of this games multiplayer during Beta while not giving a crap about team composition (wether I was alone or playing together with friends) I say this is another very bold statement and has nothing to do with facts.

We probably won like 90% of our matches by picking whatever we felt like while we often faced 4 or 5 player premades with quite the thoughtful combos here and there …

Now please don´t get the impression that I just wanna bash your oppinion …

I realize that alot of your concerns focus on singleplayer and as someone who hasn´t played that much singleplayer I can´t really argue with that. You are right that there will probably be a sizeable number of people who will focus on the singleplayer above all else … just for Borderlands-esque humor and gameplay. (and I take this oppurtunity to add that I actually think Battleborns gameplay is far more interesting, versatile and above all alse FUN than Borderlands ever was for me)

However I think that PvP multiplayer is far more difficult to get right in the first place or fix afterwards and while some aspects of the game (especially for singleplayer) might need reworking I say it´s ridiculous to demand a whole rework or brand this game unfinished or broken!

As someone who is longing everyday for this gem to return (along with my mates who played with me) I say you are massively exaggerating in your “critique”! Battleborn is the most fun I´ve had in a long time with any game and my collection and experience with games is quite substantial I daresay …

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#57

If we can avoid discussing forum users, and just stick to discussing games, that would be cool.

And by ‘cool’, I do of course mean ‘mandatory’.

Thanks.

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#58

How about quoting me ANYWHERE that I said “Melee was useless”…

You guys keep putting words in my mouth. I stated they are at a disadvantage, which they are… and if you crushed a team with all melee, more than likely that team was bad.

Ranged characters will always have a massive advantage over melee in FPS unless the maps are created to force a lot of CQC. The thing about this is… That’s not the case… The maps are set-up more for ranged characters to sit back and focus down heroes.

Orendi and Oscar Mike both have the ability to escape melee and recharge their shields and deal a ton of AOE damage and both are ranged.

When ranged characters are playing PROPERLY and not trying to CQC then melee characters can’t do anything except fight minions.

As Oscar Mike and Orendi I can rush down melee after having reduced their hp from a distance.

Also, a complete ranged composition wouldn’t be good just because I believe having a tank play distraction would allow the ranged characters to take advantage of the opposition trying to focus down the tank instead of focusing on DPS.

Now, try not to misquote me anymore but I know will it happen.

I have no problems with this thread becoming locked. Any point worth making was already made.

#59

I’m really amused with all the wall texts in this thread about melee being at a serious disadvantage but then you look at the forums and pretty much all the rage threads about a char being OP are about melee chars, not only that but many threads about the current meta are about melee teams. How does that even make any sense ?

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#60

Sorry for assuming that you think melee is bad … where ever in the world did I get that idea?

… now I´m actually sorry if I offended you (as the moderator implied) but I can get a bit hot-tempered when confronted with so many … “facts”.

A fact that I know of is that I had an absolute blast during the Beta and i would play it 24/7 still if I could.
I know for a fact that either me (with Rath) or even more often my friend (with Phoebe) wrecked enemy teams time and time again and if anything we had the impression that melee was quite OP many times.
And most importantly i know for a fact (well actually I don´t … but it´s safe to assume, I guess!) that Gearbox will NOT delay the release and rework the entire game because of made believe problems.

I´m sorry to see that you (and quite a few other people) seem to take issues with a lot of parts of the game but I had a great time and will continue to have a great time once it´s release … which I hope is as soon as possible! :wink:

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