I’ll never understand it. I was playing Fallout 4 the other day with some fun rules (only using sniper rifles, no stimpacks, etc) in order to make the game harder for myself, and then i thought about the Borderlands community.
Every now and then i’ll see posts complaining about the re-volter, plasma coil, Iron Bear, world drop nerfs, Eraser, and other items seen commonly on Youtube meta builds. Ironically, very few casual players would intentionally handicap themselves, so these players are likely in the top 10% with the best gear and builds. Unfortunately, these select few members of the community tend to also be the most vocal, so Gearbox tends to listen resulting in unnecessary nerfs for casual players who were already struggling to climb up the Mayhem ladder or finally complete the end game takedowns with their own special, more casual build.
To tie this all together, i have a question for the hardcore players in the top 10% demanding nerfs: why not just use something else? There are a plethora of other shields out there with neat features to play around with, same thing with the Plasma Coil. Iron Bear has more than just explosive miniguns and corrosive railguns. Why not try out the bear fists or flamethrowers? And as far as overpowered skill points go (Fire in the Skag Den, Eraser, etc) just don’t invest into them. BOOM. Problem solved. Balance in a game meant for an outrageous, creative variety of builds sounds terrible.
Update: i’m so used to the reddit community and limited discussion, but you guys are a whole different breed of players and it’s so awesome to see. If you have a strong opinion of what you would like to see buffed or nerfed, then PLEASE by all means share it. Fighting is pointless since you’ll tell me to lower the Mayhem level if it’s too hard and i’ll tell you to use a different gun if the game is too easy, so the challenge will be coming up with reasonable nerfs/buffs that both parties can agree on.
World drop nerf became a thing of annoyance after M2.0
Sure, i was one of the people that got tired of seeing those drop… And GBX’ solution is everything but glamorous (putting vault cards behind a paywall)
Other then that… This game is FAR from difficult…
Only times i checked other people’s builds where to check if some stuff i was doing actually worked.
Recently slapped a flak build together where i cleared guardian takedown with only rack attack and a hellshock or something if i ever went down (wich was once right near the end)
This game is pretty much a mess when you get to higher levels…
I’m playing D2:R now and it surprised me that i often died (can’t remember last time anything actually killed me in BL3) and in mid Act3 now, i found 2 set items… In BL3 i had nothing but legendaries when i whas on the second planet
IMO there was not much wrong with M1.0. I liked picking something up in M2 and testing if it M4 viable.
After keeping an eye on this forum since BL3 launch I hear from users that Gearbox made a bigger mess than what was necessary with M2.0 completely unbalancing the gear. Took over a year to fix M2.0 and it’s still not 100% right and I doubt it’ll ever be completely fixed.
Like you said I doubt casual players would even use these forums and don’t believe they can put up with the modifiers from the Mayhem levels. I’ve had many players on my friends list play BL3 a lot during the M1.0 days and now they play for a little bit before quitting for a while.
so you want to say that we should create difficulty level ourselves instead of you know end game being the difficulty level good enough.
here is what people like you guys do: demand raids ->demand raid drops to be better than other gear-> raid gear owns raid → demand harder content-> demand new raid to drop even better gear
gearbox made a mistake of giving into the constant buff trends and they have ended up with pistols and smg’s that do more damage than rocket launcher per 1 ammo. if they had just stuck to nerfing the extremely op outliers game would have been in much better state. Stop asking from me to design the game by ommiting skills and gear to make it “challenging” NO. how about game is challenging and you do not get plasma coil seems like a better deal to me. and if you can not do m11 without ■■■■■■ rail guns go and play mayhem 6…
@Hexxusz0r There were quite a few assumptions here, i’m totally content with the endgame as it is and i’m a more casual player. I’ve never demanded more raids and better gear from them although everything you mentioned DOES sound pretty cool, i don’t see why top tier gear dropping from raids would be a bad thing. The only time i felt the game truly needed buffs was when Mayhem 2.0 first came out and only a handful of guns were viable. Can you clarify your last sentence because i don’t fully understand what you’re saying. “How about the game is challenging and you do not get plasma coil” sounds pretty close to my point of “if it’s too strong then just don’t use it.” And i main Amara with the Lob and Hellshock, it’s not OP by any means but still a ton of fun. The game feels like it’s in a perfect spot with that build because i’m not wearing a re-volter by choice and amping my damage by 200%.
You made some seriously good points here. Out of curiousity, how would you personally balance the few things i mentioned, along with others that come to mind? This post was meant to invoke strong opinions for some solid discussions and i’d really enjoy hearing more about what you have to say about the current endgame and other nerfs/buffs you’d like to see in the future.
Firstly, I’m not a 1% speedrun min-maxer, I just hang out in a lot of different Borderlands communities. Secondly, I don’t think most of the stuff you mention are problems. Most YouTube builds are just unoptimized versions of the actual meta builds that exist in-game with a lot of the nuance and variety stripped away. When you watch people who know what they are doing create a build, you see just how much variety there is in this game that isn’t reflected in the Youtube scene overall.
Anywho, to your points, I can safely say in the circles I’m in the vast majority of people hate the world drop nerf because it just gives you less gear without solving any of the actual issues regarding loot. That was a “problem” that didn’t need solving. The issue is that there are too many useless anoints and passives on gear that make it undesirable, such that even getting 100 in a single day would not yield you any you want to use. That can’t be fixed in this game. For Wonderlands, if they are keeping BL3’s systems, they need to consolidate a lot of the anoints and passives so that there aren’t so many.
Iron Bear was one of the things that was buffed a bit too much. That last buff before M2.0 came out made IB feel perfect at the end of M4, didn’t matter too much in the early days of M10, and was completely unnecessary once IB got scaling. Especially with IB hardpoints and numerous class mods that buffed it even further since then. It also has several skills that apply their damage twice for some reason. Fixing that and lowering IB’s per level scaling a bit would make it less ridiculous while still not needing a ton of gear to make it wreck.
There is nothing you can do about eraser. As shown with the Short Fuse nerf, it doesn’t matter what value a skill is if it double dips, it will always be busted. The only way to curtail that would be to take the axe to the entire damage formula (by either removing large segments of it or massively lowering the values on everything), or just never having double dipping skills and having them deal a flat % of the damage you dealt which would feel pretty weak and uninteresting most of the time. I don’t think Eraser is so problematic that warrants wrecking the damage formula for it. To really abuse it takes some game knowledge, so if people who get that from whatever source can do nasty ■■■■ with it than eh, who cares?
Revolter and PC aren’t issues imo. Plasma coil was the latest in a long line of power creep starting with the Kaoson, and it has been replaced by the radical. It is a great gun that does a lot of damage, but it isn’t the be all-end all. It’s just a convient and easy choice for most scenarios. Same with Re-volter. There are actually a fair amount of times other shields compete with or beat it:
Builds relying on single pellet rocket launchers get more out of infernal wish
“Melee” builds get more out of Stinger
URad has an argument for Front Loader if you’ll get a lot of value out of a tobbagan.
Damage shields (Messy Breakup, Void Rift, etc…) for any non-Loader Flak pet build.
Builds that can spam amp (bloodletter and FL4K purple)
Red Suit for any build utilizing a suicidal weapon (Root, Pestilence, launchers, etc…)
The only builds where a revolter really dominates other shields is action skill builds, and even then there may be an argument for ASS 0.M depending on the context. It also helps bring underpowered weapons up to par for high level content, so while you could nerf it and it would still be the best offensive shield in the game, doing so would disproportionately weaken already weak weapons while not really effecting the strong ones.
So yeah, aside from IB I don’t think anything you mentioned is that problematic or can actually be fixed in the game as it stands right now.
As for things I’d like to see in the future, I just want bug fixes. I don’t care about any buffs or nerfs at all most of the time, I just want whatever skills or gear that are broken to be fixed.
Not that I’m satisfied with the the slow pace of fixes, but Expedite is confirmed fixed for the next patch by Graemme on Twitter. Can’t take it away from GBX that they do get around to fixing most things…eventually…
Thanks for the thought out response, that’s definitely a good point with the re-volter. You mentioned some skills double dipping with Iron Bear, what are those? Never heard that before. Also, if x31 scaling is too much, what do you feel would be a good happy medium? I can probably see x25 damage and still be really happy, while my main is Amara there’s nothing more fun than jumping into Iron Bear when things get tough on my Moze. What i find fascinating though is that Iron Bear got buffed AGAIN with an additional +50% damage via gun hardpoint annointments, which leads me to think that not enough people were using IB before or something. Why else would Gearbox further buff it? Not complaining, it was such a surprise to see and i loved it, but i can definitely understand why some players complain especially once you factor in Rocketeer and Iron Cub. I think a lot of people would feel better if Auto Bear damage was reduced by around 50% or something, it seems to be one of the main points of controversy.
Honestly i’d be alright if Gearbox never laid a finger on this game again, i really enjoy where the endgame is and the balance around various gear and skills. No game will ever be perfect or make anyone happy, but the majority of posts tend to be pretty positive which is a good sign.
Stainless Steel Bear and Scorching RPMs. They just apply twice now.
I didn’t mean IB’s mayhem scaling, I meant the literal per level damage scaling. For example, most of the items in game increase at a rate of 9% per level. FL4K’s pets go at 10.5% per level. Iron Bear is 13%, the fastest scaling thing in the game as far as I know. With how good IB’s base damage is, the amount of anoints and class mods that buff it substantially, and the purple tree existing, I think you could scale that back to 10.5 or 11 and still be more than OK.
As for why GBX keeps buffing what has been since phase 2 the strongest action skill in the game, who knows? I’m genuinely surprised there wasn’t an IB buff in the 2 year anniversary. There’s a bit of a meme in BL3 twitch that GBX buffs IB every 3 months, so he is overdue for one lol
People dont really want nerfs to endgame as things have to be buffed so much just to work, they want nerfs to story mode and playthroughs where the overly buffed weapons will take you 30 levels no problem because they have been buffed sloppily.
And having to just not use weapons because theyre too strong is such a boring way to play and it is way more fun if everything is well balanced and you can have fun without worrying that a gun might be way too weak or way too strong.
Also screw the plasma coil and free radical, there is nothing new or interesting about them and they just have stupid high damage, i fundamentally hate them and they shouldnt exist
Oopsie, wrote a huge rambling wall of text… Oh well
This idea is so done and tired that I was contemplating on just leaving it but since it does seem to be about genuine discussion, I’ll write something here.
Just as I’ll never understand people who get up on barricades when anything gets nerfed in their game and only ever want to see buffs.
I think the big elephant in the room here is that the game wasn’t always in this state that it’s in right now. Instead of going back to the drawing board and addressing this balancing and scaling nightmare they had created overnight by bringing mayhem 2.0 on board, they instead doubled down on it and started introducing gear in their new DLCs that is just flat out WAY better than the gear that was already in the game. After that it’s been a haphazard rebalancing effort of drizzling buffs on some random legendaries every now and then in an attempt to make them as powerful as the new gear. Doesn’t help that the balancing numbers seem to come out of someones ass what with how random they have been. On a little sidenote the byproduct of this is that there are some base game legendaries that are completely broken on normal mode.
Genuine question: what nerfs have there even been in the recent patches or even during the last year or so? I believe Fire in the skag den got toned down a bit from the completely ridiculous 90+ % per point but it still gets some pretty strong mayhem scaling and other than the only thing I can think of is fixing the multiple projectiles from anointments thingy that was causing some gear to perform extremely well (projectile recursion especially IIRC) but also, it was said to be unintentional and was apparently a major contributing factor to game crashes. I didn’t play back then but apparently there were nerfs earlier on in the games life and people raged about it so hard that I’d consider it a miracle if I see GBX tone anything down for the rest of their existence.
When it comes to mayhem mode it’s really hard for me to see a challenging climb or any kind of ladder for that matter. If you want to reach M10 or M11 you can just turn the slider straight to that, buy a gun (or pick up a plasma coil as the common meme these days is) and you’re set. All you need is something that’s capable of killing a badass that drops some gun that you’d like to use. If that’s a bit much you can just farm one enemy for a gun and then turn the slider up a notch or 2 and repeat until 10/11. That’s what I did on my first go before DLC5 was around.
As for nerfs, I think the general take about it is that people, including me, wish the game was more challenging in the end game. I’ve come to realize it’s not gonna happen as it can’t really be balanced for characters that are capable of doing billions of damage thanks to the shoddy balancing and scaling after M2.0. At this point it’s way too far gone to ever dream of the system being reworked. Even in this unfixable situation for the sake of theory, I would however point out that this game has a whopping 12 (TWELVE!!!) different difficulties. Why shouldn’t the hardest ones be challenging for the good players? What’s the point of having that many difficulty levels if the hardest one needs to be easily accessible for a “struggling casual player” as you put it?
How would you define a casual player anyway? A casual player to me is the masses that buy the game and maybe complete a playthrough if even that. Looking at steam global achievements right now shows that only a bit over 40 % of players have completed the base game. That’s “casual” in my books.
You’re playing the endgame takedowns on mayhem mode and talking about the game on the internet, apparently on multiple different platforms. I’m fairly sure that the people wishing that the game was better balanced are just as casual as you or me.