Demands for nerfs

Getting answers from Gearbox staff on Twitter works because it’s Twitter. They’re under no obligation to relay these anywhere else.

So long as the patch notes are accurate (which they haven’t always been, just in case you think I’m here as some kind of a defense party), and they provide them here, that’s the commitment done.

Thing is though, devs that play and test their game and DLC thoroughly pre-release will rarely find themselves needing to buff or nerf things. The reason why BL3 is now in this constant state of buffs is because they released content that the base game couldn’t handle, and rather than taking the easy route of simply scaling back M2.0, they decided to reblance the whole game again, only this time they’re completely ignoring non-uniques. It’s weird because at first they did try scaling down M2.0 when they reduced the HP on M10 from 12500% to 10000%. They should of did more of this, as well as nerfing any weapons that would trivialize the scaled down difficulty.

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No. But if you found out from a source outside the game that a few specific enemies had a small chance of dropping BFG ammo (BL3 never specifically tells you about dedicated drops and how they work, let alone which enemies have which dedicated drops in-game), and then you sought out those enemies, farmed them until you had several more rounds of BFG ammo than you would have if you simply played without knowledge of them and a few dropped naturally, and then purposefully saved them to cheese your way through the most difficult bosses in the game, then yes, I’d absolutely use the “why not just use something else?” argument. Sorry a Hellwalker dropped and you chose to pick it up and coast through 15 levels or 1/3 of the story, instead of leaving it, or, god forbid, only using it on an enemy that keeps kicking your ass otherwise.

If a weapon is designed with the intent that it be powerful (not to mention tucked away in an annoying location, in a tedious mode, with a crappy drop rate), and you don’t like it because it’s powerful, maybe you need to reassess whether you actually “like” that weapon, or if you just like the your idea of what it should be, which is only made from a few cherry-picked aspects of the gun as it actually is, combined with your own subjective biases. I LIKE the Mother Too, despite its lower damage compared to other legendary SMGs (like the Plasma Coil), so I use it, because the fun of using it mitigates the fun of not doing multiple millions of damage.
You can have your cake, or you can eat it, but don’t throw it on the floor and demand someone else’s piece just because you wanted the corner with the frosting flower.

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BL3 is an aRPG. It’s about collecting guns. You can’t say “well why did you farm it?” when that is what customers intending to play NG+ pay for.

Well that’s the argument: designing intentionally powerful weapons in a game that aims for replay value is a mistake in my opinion. Replay value comes from challenging the player, and mostly from variety, and the goal is to have more, not less.
And I like Maliwan weapons. I like rapidfire weapons too. I get one less because of crap balance.
You say I’m cherry-picking aspects of the gun, so be it, but I’d put it more like: “I don’t want a worm in this cherry”.

We wouldn’t be having this argument if the broken weapons never reached the live build, and were nerfed while in development. Everyone would still be happily using the plasma coil, i.e. having the cake and eating it too. It would still be a fun weapon if it was nerfed a bit. That is the point.
Or to put it another way: if Doom actually came out with 100 BFG ammo per level, and then it got nerfed, I firmly believe there’d be a least one guy out there saying that Bethesda is just taking away their fun.

So I’ve got a question for you: if intentionally powerful weapons are so great, why don’t you play with cheats? You can mod BL3 around to make some pretty crazy guns. I like games that encourage me to try different stuff, where there’s many different ways to win its challenges, and indeed its challenges make you maximize your chosen strat without making you feel like only one or two is worthwhile - because then if I get bored, I can try a different one. Why are you throwing this cake on the floor and demand my piece because you wanted the corner with the marzipan rose?

PS: I’m referring to the plasma coil as a stand-in for any piece of gear that has been nerfed, or may be nerfed in the future. I’m arguing about the principle of nerfing.

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Being an RPG and being “about collecting guns” are not mutually exclusive, and the latter is 100% subjective. A game, especially one like BL3, can be “about” different things to different people.

Again, subjective. Farming isn’t required to beat or even progress through the game, and the game doesn’t even tell you about it, let alone push you toward it. Some people like to farm. Other pick up whatever drops and play. Others play the whole game with Moxxy Hails, never picking up a single world drop. All comes down to preference (preference for what’s actually IN the game).

I don’t remember GBX stating that replay value was specifically-prioritized tenet of BL3, but thank you for qualifying that as your opinion.

Replay value comes from a lot of things. Many game have New Game+ that doesn’t change the difficulty at all, unless the player chooses a higher difficulty. Many people had more than enough challenge just playing through BL3 on normal mode.

-1 out of a billion guns. Poor you.

One man’s “worm” is another man’s chocolate filling. Either way, good thing there’s a billion other pieces of fruit to choose from.

Games this big will never be released balanced again. Make peace with it.

Only people who were just using it regardless of the damage. Considering it only drops in Arms Race, and the drop rate is very low, the odds of getting one without trying to are minuscule. No one is getting a Plasma Coil from an anointed badass in story mode. So, most of the people using it in its current form, went out of their way to get it. Everyone using it for the high damage will just switch to the next highest damage SMG, and everyone prone to complaining about balance will just complain about that gun.

Because there are already intentionally powerful weapons in the game to choose from? I have my cake, and I’m grateful.

If we look at it practically, somewhat less than a billion, but yeah it’s not bad. But it could be better. Why settle for less?

I’m just arguing for better value for money, the kind that other games in this genre have. I see a way to help that, and point it out. Yeah I could be wrong, but I’m basing it on my time played of balanced games as opposed to imbalanced ones (PvE or no). And yeah, sure, you can say it is just my preference, but I notice that other people also want balance even in their PvE games (often subconsciously too). Ones that have cheesy strats or OP gear get criticized, or aren’t as successful, or don’t remain in steam’s top 100 for as long and get whined about, etc.

Probably. This does not actually excuse balance flaws though, and we are on the game’s forum, in a topic about balance. Were doctors supposed to just make peace with measles?

Others don’t, and you’re telling them they’re wrong. The same logic you apply to them (“why don’t you just not use the OP gear?”) could be applied to you (“why don’t you just cheat?”)

One man’s “chocolate filling” is another man’s worm. You still get the cherry. And by the way chocolate filling usually gets old much quicker.

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Perfect.

Subjective balance flaws.

No, but pretty sure they have to make peace with the fact sickness will always exist, at least at our current state of being.

Again, not liking the cake isn’t not having it.

Quote me.

I don’t cheat because I choose not to. The reason for that choice is irrelevant, but regardless, cheating, by it’s very nature, is going outside the bounds and systems of the game as they are organically presented to the player. It is NOT tantamount to setting artificial, player-driven boundaries WITHIN the game as it is.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t cheat at single-player games, but it’s not coherently comparable to setting player-defined limitations to increase difficulty.

You’re generally arguing against nerfing powerful gear. My stance is that these contribute to a game becoming stale, and you’re saying no, it’s good like this because OP weapons are fun.

Semantics. Plus it’s just as inorganic to NOT pick up a Hellwalker and use it, or NOT try out one of the new guns in a 15 dollar DLC.
I would still suggest that maybe for the next BL game, they make it better balanced, and then instead of me having to do greens-only runs for my fun, you have to do cheat runs for your fun, see how you like it. And then maybe for the BL game after that we can switch again.

I just don’t understand the fanatical opposition some people have against the very concept of nerfing, which might color my argument with you. Is it really so impossible to concieve that a gun in Shooty Shooter: the Shootening that does 10 damage, at one point did 11 damage, but a developer said “nah, that’s a bit too much” because he thought it made the game too easy, or made other guns feel not worthwhile? Do we seriously think the great games we know and love were all made by only ever increasing numbers, never decreasing them? Because the way some people talk about nerfing, they make it sound practically like devil worship. It’s baffling.
Imo the goal should be balanced gear, and if they can take a step toward that with a nerf, they should do it. If they nerf a favorite gun of mine, well it’s sad, but oh well. With halfway competent devs I can trust that it’ll still be fun.
Now if you want to talk about overnerfing and ruining something, that’s a whole other deal and a valid complaint, of course.
Anyway, rant over.

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You’ve both made some seriously good points, and honestly neither of you are wrong. I think the biggest, coolest part about having certain guns like the Plasma Coil is that you don’t need to rely on Google or meta builds just to complete endgame content. You have the opportunity to beat every raid boss with every vault hunter with so many incredible variety of weapons as opposed to BL2 and i’m all here for it, hopefully they do the same thing with Wonderlands.

BUT if you do want to look up meta youtube builds and make those OP weapons even more OP, you absolutely can and that’s another great thing. I would never want that to be required for endgame content though, and i think that’s where Gearbox got the balancing right. Without using the internet for my builds, it took me two years and two different vault hunters plus EXTENSIVE farming of mediocre gear to finally play through TVHM Mayhem 10. My pride and joy isn’t an ASS Re-volter, but instead a Bear Trooper that i grinded out on the class mod farm place of Nekrodefayo because i had no idea where they dropped otherwise. +43% Action Skill Cooldown and +43% Action Skill damage, i took 6 months but feels so great now to finally beat Hermivorous (even if it still does take a couple tries).

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I disagree entirely my friend. In BL2 some of the most Premier and FUN weapons in the game were blue…

Sandhawk
Ladyfist
Pimpernel
Fibber
Fremington Edge
Hail
Blockhead
Kitten
Orphan Maker
Rubi
Grog
Heartbreaker
Slow Hand
Teapot
Trespasser
Rapier
Morningstar
Grog Nozzle
Creamer
Hive
Jolly Roger

And the Swordsplosion wasn’t officially blue but it was a unique that was incredible!

Overall an incredible array of unique weapons that were not only truly “unique” but many of them were some of the strongest in the game or had a truly valuable niche.

I think they missed out badly by leaving this element out of Borderlands 3.

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I’m not sure I’m fanatical about it.

I just think 3 things.

The first is that if a company were to do proper testing then the situation would not arise in the first place.

And the second thing is that given the situation mentioned above nerfs seldom work and cause more people to leave a game then to be satisfied with it.

And the third thing is I don’t understand why if a piece of equipment makes someone unhappy why people have this need to use it anyway. It’s like they are somehow compelled to use it “because it’s the best” regardless if that spoils their fun. It’s almost like people can’t think for themselves anymore.

Pretty simple really.

I do agree on the balance being messed up. I think the game was in a pretty good situation at Mayhem 1.0 After some patches. After Meyhem 2.0 it has literally taken this game 15 months to recover to a fairly decent state right now. Although some will say it’s “way too easy”.

Lastly, if you can accomplish the Guardian or even the Maliwan Takedown on true take down with green gear ….you’re a better man than I am Gunga Din

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I mean, I respect your right to disagree, but you literally just proved my point by listing a bunch of blues and purps that perform like Legendaries.
I’m not gonna say it’s the end all, be all deciding factor, but Red Text has always been a better indicator of a weapon being likely to perform like a Legendary, than their actual rarity color. Hell, the Big Succ is green and the Echo-2 is white.

They left out non-Legendary uniques? I mean, I’m on TVHM/M10, and I still use the Omniloader, Hangin Chadd, The Cure, Buttplug, Crit, Icebreaker, Melt Facer, Shrieking Devil… You could add the Vibra-pulse to that list, if it wasn’t locked behind a once-per-character challenge that doesn’t even trigger reliably. Are you talking about those specific uniques from BL2? Because the Sandhawk, Heartbreaker, Slow Hand, Creamer, and Hive are all in BL3. I know they’re not exactly the same, some even changed from one weapon type to another. But for the most part they just got coloring consistent with their performance. Hell, the Hail is still blue. Are you saying you just want more guns that perform like Legendaries, but are colored blue/purp… because there’s some kind of functional difference between the two? Or just coincidental differences, that make a few of them seem “good, but not too OP” (as if that wasn’t the most subjective metric ever).

Also happens with buffs.
You overbuff stuff, game becomes too easy and people see no point in playing it.

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The amount of people who leave because of nerfs and the amount of people who leave because of buffs are a inversly correlated, with nerfs being on the negative end (who could’ve guessed? there’s even alliteration). It’s the same principle behind PG-13 movies being more profitable than R-rated movies; more accessibility means more viewers means more money. Sure, you’re missing out on some money if you make a PG Horror movie, but not as much as if you make an R-rated Superhero movie. And I don’t care what you think of BL3, the Borderlands series has never been the Souls or Sekiro of FPSs or even Looter-shooters.

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Which goes back to my point behind Door #1….

And just how many of the overall bazillion choices in this game have been……”over buffed” ??

I say again….

If you don’t like “choice” and feel like you need someone to decide your meta. Probably best you stop playing BL3.

And I also say again if you don’t like something….don’t use it.

My gorgeous wife that I have been married to for 40 years finally got her “dream car” after working her whole life and raising our family while I was out l doing “Army stuff” as she puts it. It’s a beautiful BMW with all the bells and whistle’s…top of the line…

Car is “over buffed” for me… I like my good old Jeep.

So that is what I drive….

Saavy??

I will agree that I think the game made a mistake in “balance” at Mayhem 2.0 and is only now starting to recover from that….and really may never recover from it.

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@otacon305

Yes, no, maybe….Lol

Yes I would want a few quest items and Uniques that would be a reward or drop from a boss that would absolutely be top-of-the-line.

Better than a legendary?

Sure…why not…??

Else why call them “unique”…

And a Godsend to folks who don’t want to or don’t have the time to “farm” Legendaries.

How would this hurt the game one iota?

No my friend…In this particular aspect, BL2 did it right and BL3 did not…that simple and the uniques you mentioned pale in comparison to something like a BL2 Sandhawk or Pimp…

And this aspect of the game I hope they reacquire in Wonderland’s and future iterations of Borderlands

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You have a great point there as well, BL3 was arguably the first in the series that felt truly accessible to casuals who want to have some fun with legendary weapons during their first run through the game instead of only seeing one, and that’s if they’re lucky. You could definitely argue that finding a Hellshock and having it carry you for 20 levels is bad and to that extent i can understand, but MAN was it fun. The more legendaries, coms and relics i found, the more i wanted to play and experiment. Everything just felt so restricted to the top 10% in Borderlands 2 endgame, which isn’t bad but like you said, it’s probably not as profitable and accessible to people without much free time. Pg13 vs R rated was such a good example, and while i absolutely prefer pg13 i can see why more hardcore players don’t. Endgame was kind of like their trophy and shining achievement, if everyone can do it then it probably doesn’t feel as special for them. BUT we have Reddit boss melts for bragging rights, right? :smirk:

I feel like BL3 catered much more to those who don’t have as much free time than BL2 did, the variety of useable weapons are incredible and it makes sense that legendaries would typically be the best right? Thankfully farming in BL3 isn’t nearly as painful as 2 because of the reroll machine, schlooter, and other additions. It definitely seems like 3 would be a better fit for your car example as well. Your wife likes playing Minesweeper Moze but you’re over here enjoying your slower paced sniper Zane, ya know? HUGE variety of build possibilities to make anyone happy, which is something BL2 never seemed to achieve for me personally.

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I think the best and worst part about BL3 is that it appeals to everyone and no one simultaneously.

If you’re a casual with not a lot of free time, getting powerful legendaries is easy and progressing through the endgame may not feel difficult for a while. But then you get past M6 and things start needing more understanding to work. You need good gear passives (as well as the knowledge to know which ones are actually good), decent anoints, a decently put together skill build, etc… for the average skilled player to not hit a wall. You start encountering skills that lie about their effects, hidden mechanics like mayhem scaling and health gate, etc…

If you’re hardcore, there are ton’s of different things for you to sink your teeth into. So much that the top theorycrafters can 1 shot bosses without skill points, complete the raids with no class mod, or just play through the game with all levels of handicaps without much issue.

So you have a game that is at the same time extremely accessible yet extremely elitist. Few players can feasibly spend the amount of time it takes to learn about the game and farm for gear to legitimately put together powerful builds without cheese weapons or strats. However, for hardcore players who can do so, the game offers very little resistance for them and they feel no drive to continue playing. And as much as you can say “just play off-meta”, not every player is me or Stone_Swan or Sammanix who spend their time in game with the wacky ■■■■ no one else wants to. There are very few specs that can be optimized and still allow for challenging play, and they tend to be specs that the community at large seem not to care as much for (DOT builds, pets, pure melee, etc…). Like it or not, some players do enjoy finding the most efficient ways (notice the plural there) to play their characters, and asking them not to do so is like expecting off-meta players to go meta or not progress at all.

To tie this back to the thread, buffs tend to make the casual crowd happy, but most of them, while welcome, don’t shake up the meta for hardcore players. Likewise, most nerfs, while upsetting for casual players, don’t shift the meta for hardcores. Numbers get adjusted, but desirability largely stays unchanged most of the time. Which is the whole point of most nerfs: not to make an item unusable or unfun, but simply to make it less good in comparison to its competitors. Something like the Revolter could get nerfed by half, it would still be one of the best shields in the game for builds that benefit from it. It could also be left alone. Either way, it is never going to not be a good shield. It’s just a matter of how much better than other shields it is in how many scenarios. Once you look at nerfs through that lens, very few are concerning. Ironically, the nerfs that are actually problematic (ahem Tediore nerf ahem) are the ones that people tend not to complain about.

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