DeputyChuck's Gunzerking management class

(Frost_Dragon) #101

I guess my big question now is, how much help is Out of Bubblegum? I’m on PS4, and I know that high fire rates are capped by fps, but I have seen reports that all consoles are 30 fps, but also that PS4 and Xbox one run the Handsome Collection at 60.

Also, with all of the other fire rate bonuses, is the 35% fire rate that much better than the 25% damage from KIPH?
I have Locked and Loaded active most of the time from my Grog having to reload and Keep Firing is a big bonus as well.

Assuming fire rate bonuses are additive, an Ogre with Fire rate 6.3 hits 13.4 just from those two, by my math, it only needs another 25% fire rate to hit 15. Even with 60 fps, the next break point of 20 would be hard to reach needing 104% more fire rate above those two skills. I have about 10% in all of my Badass stats so far, but that will only go up.

The Conference call is another matter, with only a fire rate of 4.3. LnL and KF only get it to 9.2, needing another 19% to push it above the 10 breakpoint, but 66% to reach 12 (if PS4 framerate is 60 that would be the next fire rate to line up with frames) which could only be hit either with more points in Lay Waste or a high BAR bonus with OoB.

Huh… it feels good to get into theorycrafting math again, I haven’t done much of this since my WoW days a few years ago.

Edit: I think for bosses without little minions to kill for Kill skills I would want to use a much different build entirely as this needs 5 shots or 6 to be active to work it’s best, but it seems if I am going to rely on a Kill skill being active, why not get more out of it, that is my reasoning for going heavy Lay Waste, KiPH, and NKLO.

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(How much time do we have?) #102

The older consoles do indeed max out at 30 frames, but he Handsome collection on current gen runs at 60. (Mostly - it can drop under certain circumstances, but for single player it’s pretty solid.)

(Sheriff) #103

Don’t worry too much about fire rate caps.
The increments are small enough at 60 fps to not bother checking. From my testing, not all fire rate boosts are additive, the test results are wildly inconsistent and the testing method almost drove me crazy. Suffice to say that if you want to come up with an equation for fire rate in this game, be my guest.

OoBG is fairly comparable to KiPH, but what you get around it is better IMO. Usually I advise for a comparable damage bonus vs a fire rate bonus as the ammo expenditure and reload times will be obvious downsides. However on a hoarder build, those things become irrelevant, and the random elemental chances, Crits and staggers will more than make up for those. (Consider also that it speeds up your grog, meaning more slag)

The Bus is tremendously underrated by most players. The ability to position yourself for better shots, avoid suicide bomber, get in and out of cover and extending your gunzerk time is really hard to measure compared to … Say, a fire rate boost from Lay Waste… But it’s definitely worth it. Even at 2/5 it really shines. Coupled with 5/5 incite, you will not want to go back.

(Frost_Dragon) #104

I guess one last thing, If I am finding that I am fine without the boost to my Max health from a Blood of the ancients, would a Shadow of the Seraphs work with 60 fps, or is it’s mechanic still not going to work with high fire rates?

(Sheriff) #105

Not going to work above a fire rate of 10

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #106

10 FR rule for extra shot was true at 30fps, has it been tested at 60?

Lay Waste > Out of Bubblegum, if you’re choosing between them. Most bosses have adds, and the ones that don’t will die without either. Chuck likes his Bus, which is the only reason to go that deep into Brawn. Ass-bestos and Jugger-not don’t have the numbers to actually do anything. HtK and AGTtB are pointless with Health Gating mechanic and Grog Nozzle. You waste 15 to 19 points in Brawn just to get Bus. We have plenty of points, thankfully.

NKLO is actually fine with rapid-fire weapons. I noticed the difference on Stalker/Stinger, the epitome of bullet hosing. Lay Waste >= Bubblegum, so KiPH and NKLO will always outperform going past Incite in Brawn.

If you really want Bus, here’s how I would do it. Keep in mind I’m a DPS whore. Hoarder sort of requires max Yippie and Last Longer

(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #107

I am very fond of Bus that Can’t slow…
Hugely underrated and I love it. Its almost always a must have for me at this point.

(Frost_Dragon) #108

I noticed when I switched from HtK and OoBG to Lay Waste, KiPH, and NKLO that I was clearing mobs while tubby farming much quicker, after killing something small I would just eat away at a rabid skags hp a lot faster. Plus it looks like my offhand gets the bonus damage, so my grog was doing decent damage.

I won’t say that extra move speed isn’t helpful, but I don’t see it as needed, especially with Incite already providing some.

(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #109

I used to think the same…not anymore. Going all the way to CamB has been fun and rewarding. Seeing SexyRex keep me from taking knee was very satisfying. on runs that I’ve done countless times, I’ve done with the brawn build and was surprised to see it actually work at OP8. Of course, I’m boosting SexyT with a Monk com, but its effective. You don’t have to keep a grog in your main hand with a brawn build. I purposely stay away from that mission so I don’t even have a grog. Rubi does just fine and actually ramps up the difficulty which I also find satisfying. :cowboy_hat_face:


edit: ever notice the verbiage on Sals fingers? Which would you prefer? To be Wrong, or be Rite? lol

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #110

It’s an acquired taste, to be sure. Bus is fun and does give you what you might call “abstract damage reduction”. However, the only damage mitigation Salvador needs is having a Grog Nozzle and actually hitting the enemies.

If you want Bus, my version would be this:

Otherwise, my build that @Jefe linked would obviously be my first choice.

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #111

I’m not saying it doesn’t work… The issue I’ve always had and will always have with Brawn tree is that it doesn’t actually help you face-tank damage, rather you have to play defensively while it heals chip damage… Also you invalidate the entire tree by having a Moxxi weapon, even Rubi or Kittens.

Bus is good. SexyT is passable with a COM. Come at Me Bro is good, once per Gunzerk.

But as always, the issue is, why would I spend 20 some odd points in a tree that I can actually outperform with my left hand weapon? And if you’re using a Moxxi weapon (other than Grog, generally), lower DPS equals lower healing. Therefore, Brawn is for people who want to avoid Moxxi weapons, which should be clearly understood by everyone here as a ‘challenge’ build.

Nothing wrong with it, I think most of us have played Dark Souls games. I just think we should be very clear about the difference between “technically functional” and “comparatively powerful”.

(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #112

most definitely. more difficulty and reaching success is very satisfying for me. Rubi 12% heal only works with my moneyshot. the first shot doesn’t do enough damage to heal me past health gate. So, i do take a knee without the brawn build. sometimes with the brawn build if I’m slow on the CamB. I’m not the greatest of players, so i do rely on moxxi but not the Grog. imo, the Grog is overkill and puts the game on easy mode for the most part.

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #113

I’m convinced the devs purposely put the Grog Nozzle in as a joke because before that DLC, all the BL2 Talking Heads were complaining that Rubi made Sal and Zer0 busted good.

“Oh, they should nerf it to heal like 4% to 6% like the other Moxxi weapons, it’s too good!”

“Well, here’s one that heals 65% and is always Slag. Nerds.”

These are the same people that described Flame of the Firehawk as “underwhelming for Salvador”. Head scratcher, that one (protip: it heals you with Moxxi weapons).

I kinda go the other way. I like busted good stuff. When I wanted a challenge, I’d play a different character. You kinda have to go out of your way to make Salvador not broken. I mean, you can barely go down his Gunlust tree without hitting a skill that’s bugged in some way. Also, never hit the Gunzerk button (Crit Damage applies to both weapons, ayy).

(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #114

lmao :rofl:

I can see your point of view. I kind of agree…
meaning, if you have the right gear, he’s broken. But without “key” ingredients, he’s not so OP. and I think that is the case for all characters. Any one of them can be broken/OP with the right gear and build.

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #115

I dunno, Axton is kinda meh no matter what you do.

I always found Maya to be a nice balance between OP fun and challenge fun. But my style with her was a little against the normal grain. She was the one I used Rough Rider and Movement Speed on, heh.

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(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #116

I strongly disagree. I can provide proof if need be. Demonite, where you at brutha. lol I have seen so many Axton speed kills its insane. if you know your stuff, Axton can crush them all. I like Axton a lot. After Sal, I’d go Maya and then Axton as my favs of the game.

(Really, really, ridiculously good-looking) #117

Agree to disagree, I guess. DPS ceiling for Axton is lower than other characters’ broken combos. It’s still enough to do The Thing, but my recollection of Time Trials is that Axton was generally 5th or 6th. There are only 6 characters in the game, someone has to be last.

Compared to PimpGlitch Sal, everyone is tied for last place ;p

(Vault Hunter - Borderlands Addict) #119
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(Sheriff) #120

Hey, as far as I’m concerned, you and @Sljm can derail my thread all you want :slight_smile:

Speaking of Sljm: Welcome back dude :slight_smile:

As for Brawn, I’ve had a change of heart lately and I have started to prefer the top half of it to the bottom half of the Gunlust tree.

Yes the Grog kinda invalidates it… but what you have in the other hand almost invalidates the Gunlust tree as well. Rampage alone provides a lot of DPS.

Bus is really good, AgttB is good, OoBG is good, HtK is at least as good as some of the less interesting skills you have to take in Gunlust. Incite is a great tier 1 skill… The real problem with Brawn is that the tier2 skills are really bad and Brawn in general house some of Sal’s worst skills.

And I’ve also found that COMBINED with a Grog, it will allow me to stay up better than just a grog alone, without much DPS loss in the process.

With a bit of health stacking, you don,t even have to rely on healthgate to stay alive.

Lay waste is great, KiPH is nice, but it’s a drop in the ocean as far as DPS goes…

I guess it really depends on the build. Hoarder is not that clear cut, but in a Deputy build for example, where the whole thing is set up in 50 skill points and the DPS is high enough to work even without a boost to Money shot, Brawn stands out as a very reasonable place to sink those points.

The only Deputy run in the TT is a Brawn version with a Beast COM :stuck_out_tongue:
And a lot of people are reporting better results with the Brawn version.

(Sheriff) #121

At the time it was tested on PC as well and it was still true.