"Desperate Measures" and "Click, Click..." should have their damage boosts switched

I’m a big believer that big damage boosts should reward the challenge of getting those damage boosts. IE, the harder it is to get a damage boost, the better that boost should be.

Well, Moze can get to 1hp permanently, and it’s not even a sacrifice, it’s outright beneficial. Giving her an extra 50% damage for being there is just excessive.

By contrast, Click, Click… is very difficult to maintain. You need to very precisely manage your clip size, and then control your use of Redistribution to keep your clip at a low level, but not actually reloading. COV weapons can’t manage it at all.

It’s by far the more difficult of the two skills to use, and yet, it gives a substantially smaller damage bonus for doing so!

That’s why I think the two should have their damage boosts switched. Reducing Desperate Measures to 36% wouldn’t make the skill bad, just more reasonable, and making Click Click 50% would help make using the skill actually worth the bother.


Or just have Click, Click… deliver its full bonus when the clip is full rather than empty. Since the entire point of the tree is bottomless magazines.


The skill is actually a really cool idea right now; you have to find the right combination of weapon and equipment to get your magazine exactly the right size it shrinks with just the 5% regen from Forge, but stops shrinking with the extra 5% from redistribution. It’s a challenge but not an overwhelming one. Removing that challenge would be a bad move, just reward that difficulty.

By contrast, Desperate Measures is far too easy to get for its bonus. Lowering it slightly would reduce the pressure to always go 1hp build on Moze.

Except its way too weak to truly reward such a playstyle, which is OPs point. By comparison, Amara’s Personal Space is another conditional bonus, but offers 18% multiplicative damage based on distance- and testings have shown this distance is really really generous.

Click Click is probably the hardest conditional damage bonus to maintain - and by logic should be the strongest one in the game. I think 20-25% multiplicative damage per level sounds fair. Additive damage would still be fairly underwhelming because Moze already has a ton of that

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go to planet
open ammo chest
fire wildly into the air until on last bit of mag
walk up to chest to grab ammo to lock your mag on its last rounds

I agree with this. Even if you unload a full clip into something, 3/3 Click Click only works out to ~13% bonus damage for that clip, which is low even for an unconditional damage bonus. If you fail to unload the whole clip it’s even worse than that. 3/3 being 75% would mean the whole clip gets ~37.5% more damage, which I think is more fair given how infrequently you’ll unload a full clip into something with that tree.

Totally agree. Click, Click… seems kinda counter-intuitive to Bottomless Mags playstyle.

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Click Click just needs a decent buff. Desperate Measures is honestly fine (you give up health gate/lock some of your gear choices to optimize it). Pretty sure FL4K and Amara (with her weapon damage per Rush stack COM) can get great numbers as well.

Yeah. It’s also a bit tricky just comparing numbers. Moze has a lot of great modifiers, but the other vault hunters still keep up, and Amara is generally even stronger. You can’t just point at a skill and say “this is overtuned,” you have to look at the whole package.

Why can’t Cov weapons manage with Click Click?

Because ammo regen doesn’t function with heat. When you can alternate using just Forge, versus Forge+Redistribution, you can get your ammo low, then maintain it at that level with Redistribution. COV guns will overheat no matter what you do, so there’s really nothing you can do but hold the trigger down, giving you a little under half the stated bonus on average.

Is firing in sustained burst or using the Chadd Gun not viable?

Not particularly, because that reduces your dps even more. There’s not much you can do while waiting to cool down, anyway. After all, you can shoot and throw grenades at the same time, now.

Yes, Chadd is viable and has good synergy with Click, Click…

There is a “Sweet spot” for Click, Click… that takes into account Mag Size, Rate of Fire, and Ammo regen, where you can fire most of your mag, then fire in controlled bursts to stay at the bottom of the mag.

I’m mostly saying that as when I extensively use Click Click for Cov Weapons the game no longer treats it about magazine size. As long as you’re constantly getting ammo regen from crits while also having ammo regen you can definitely keep up with constant fire. You can have you guns always near over heat but if you know it’s about to bust just switch over to another Cov Gun so it’ll cool down in your inventory.

Chadd gun is pretty good here cause it’s basically always on max heat and it takes 999 shots to bust

If you never overheat your weapons, then not only are you losing DPS in the time you spend letting it cool down, or time spent swapping weapons, you also never get the full damage bonus from the skill. In the long run, you’ll actually do less damage than if you were just using an ordinary weapon.

The chadd is an exception , but it is just one gun.

I think a multiplicative bonus between from 0 to 30% which increases the more time Moze spends not reloading would make much more sense.

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Is there any need to compare two of her skills, when you can take advantage of both?

I wouldn’t take it as a given that firing in controlled bursts is actually better DPS than just reloading. Click, Click… is only 36% damage.

I was thinking that you could change the Click Click gun damage bonus to be proportional to how empty your mag is times a modifier (i.e. % of empty mag * .5). You could then increase the modifier with point investment, potentially to a modifier that was over 1.