imo there’s plenty of game mechanics that are broken. so even if the CTD and balance bugs are fixed, it would not matter much. :\ 2 engines were integrated without much thought as to the mechanics. ie: band-aid port.
Here, let me help you out with out trying to sound to condescending towards your efforts. Because I do appreciate your attempt, but you still have much to learn.
Until we can see this in action and test it ourselves, no one is going to take your word for it, nor believe you have any idea what you are taking about. Throwing around words like TTK or a ‘single volley from plural units’ without any numbers to back them up or the ability for us to see a demonstration is a waist of text. Ever heard of magic numbers? Come to us with details like x# flack frigates will one shot an x#supported assault frigate. Or at x# torp frigates volleys overtake repair so that it takes a total of x# of volleys and total x# seconds. Then from their we start calculations on RU, research time, build time, travel time etc to see if there is a replenishment rate, RU rate, production location thus reinforcement time of both us and the enemy to get us over the top. You know what this is called? Strategy. Crying about how strong 1 unit is verse another and convincing developers to change numbers based on an entitled belief that your scientist have to be as good as theirs or its not fair does nothing but create flavor of the month builds that waist the efforts of the strategist that really play this game. IMO, every number tweak should come with a supporting lore change if nothing else but to make the developers think twice about the fiction they are going to have to write in order to make that change.
The people arguing you down here have done this, know what combination of light/heavy vet numbers will 1 shot a heavy vet with and without support. You seem to have this idea that the HW2 side is already going to have that magic number of units prior to engagement. They won’t. This is a strategy game, a space war simulator that puts the mind to the test of taking what we have and making it work. We know that war is not fair and so we will not fight fair nor expect the enemy will either.
It’s not just about what it looks like in the end state, but how it looks during the buildup as well, and we can’t effectivly test this because all of our pilots and skippers have been infected by some HW2 virus that’s turned them into children. We need a cure, not giving these kids bigger guns and hope for the best.
I’ll echo everyone else here who I’ve known for 15 years now and knows what they are talking about. Balance after mechanics, otherwise you’re waisting time.
But to maybe put your mind at ease, we will come with number changes once we have identified a true imbalance and the root cause of that imbalance. Most of the time, it won’t be HP or Dmg of a single unit that is the primary factor. If you’re interested in helping, maybe we can shoot you the numbers to mod in and test before actually submitting a well thought out, tested, community agreeded upon tweak to the developers.
2 engines were integrated without much thought as to the mechanics.
No they weren’t. They ported the old races to the hw2 engine, that’s it.
Crashes happen because of the engine being 10 years old, so some further fixing might be needed for it to run better on new operating systems. Although I’ve only crashed once or twice so far, i’d say that is pretty good.
Agreed what they did is rather good considering the age of the engine although I must admit I never had any problems with the entire Homeworld franchise that is with dubious Homeworld.exe files that is by unnamed sources fixing numerous direct x and other graphic glitches in order to allow it to be played on modern OS systems. Even so the numerous virus killers never showed any viruses on those modified .exe files.
Still questionable of course never the less.
Anyway the best course of action is either to create a 2nd game mode in a separate data bank or giving a true Remastered edition in an entirely new engine lets say hw3.v2.0 combining the best assets of both former game engines perhaps in numerous game modes. I for once don’t doubt for a second that HW1 was just a success not just for the 3D environment back then but also that it offered Micromanagement and many tactics that could have led to victory while in HW2 it was usually the same: Get your cruisers asap and you may win sooner or later the more you’ve got. It partially forced a successful strategy upon you.
Also if you compare HW1 with HW2 vanilla the differences are clear. Hw1 benefits stragety and micromanagement where though HW2 benefits more resourcers and macro gameplay. That alone would be fine too. Even in HW1 if you had the res advantage you would have won in the long run most likely. But in HW2 it’s one of the main reasons for winning a game. Considering the maps that offer 1 main mining op plus 1 expansion it also doesn’t offer much room for expanding even further or harassing the enemy res operations which are usually not far away from the Mothership and therefore the main fleet.
It makes everything simple and repetitive but that counts only for the official maps of course there are tons of great custom maps that make the game play a lot more challenging in that regard in Hw2…
Nice analysis based on nothing.
Your reply shows exactly how much people don’t understand the issues with the HW1 races.
Flak do 140 damage per hit. Corvs have 400 hp. 3 shots will take out many corvettes. That perfectly proves my point on how corvs are going to die before they get repaired.
In HW2, heavy corvs had 1700 hp, not 400, and nothing did more than like 125 damage in a shot IF it hit. I don’t see how there is anything to really argue here, it’s just objective facts that you seem to want to disagree with just?
I’m not sure how else to tell you this, but I’ll say it again: Even if there were formations, tactics, and working support logic, the game would play nothing like HW1. There numbers are so different. Your same HW1 strategies would not work. There’s nothing to argue there, it’s an objective, factual statement.
That’s not to say I don’t want those things. You know I do. I was adamant about them from the start. But I understand that just makes the game better, but it does NOT make it HW1 again and you will have to learn to play the race differently, as will HW2 players.
I posted the numbers of every unit public for you all so you can see for yourself and we can stop having all this misinformation thrown around.
So many people don’t believe my numbers themselves, and think I made HW1 races OP (like @yvasser), but they won’t bother to look at the numbers themselves. Not sure what you want me to do.
You should also know how vulnerable research vessels are, in this strategy game, and how important that is.
And how HW2 races collect faster outside of the very start, like I already stated, giving them more of an advantage.
And you know yourself you can’t beat a good HW2 player playing a HW1 race. So I really don’t get what you’re trying to say here…
I’m sorry but the “people arguing [me] down” just don’t make as much of an effort to see how poorly balanced things are. They just read the changes I’ve made, and see that I made a unit much stronger, and think GBX must have done a good job with balance or something and I’m just trying to make them crazy OP. They never played it for themselves to see. They play a HW1 race, and they use nothing but defenders, drone frigs, destroyers. Maybe once they built a lot of light corvs and they won because the other person was just bad and didn’t make units. Doesn’t make them balanced.
You say things about Lore, but the way I balanced units makes them more like HW1 ones. So… isn’t that more toward the lore than HWRM? I’m getting this less and less.
It’s rather insulting that there is some assumption that I only considered how one unit fares versus another and that is how balance works. I don’t see how you can gleam that from the changes, either, except that you just don’t get at what a bad spot HW1 races are in almost every way. You haven’t tried it, you just see “Lots of changes are made, obviously was just making them OP and doesn’t know what he’s doing!” That’s quite unfair. I know you play them, but you use 3 units. That should be telling as to how bad the other units are…
No, I considered the whole metagame of balance.
Someone else made a good post about how even if races do win equally against each other, which HW1 vs HW2 certainly don’t, that doesn’t mean the balance is good, because there is a design of balance that also makes the game more or less fun to play.
But yeah, that posting, with all the relevant numbers for every unit? All ships in a more readable and usable JSON format
HW1 and HW2 are wildly different.
Putting them together is like putting Quake and CoD together, where the quake side can use teleporters and jump pads but the CoD side can’t.
Or maybe a more apt example would be SC2 Terran fighting up against Broodwar Zerg.
There are way more differences than controls, unit behavior, and flight modeling.
Now what would be nice, in addition to getting formations and tactics back, is if “HW1 Deathmatch” and “HW2 Deathmatch” used the balancing numbers from their respective original games.
But for HWRM to work, for the races of each game to work together, numbers for both have to be changed a lot, and they will play nothing like the originals, especially when HW2 races get the benefits of better unit behavior and foramtions and tactics as well.
The reason theres so few players is bc none of us can connect to shift including me. We are stuck in launcher and all it says is “connecting to shift” and it never does. So online for us is unplayable!
Did you link your steam account to shift?
yes i did link my steam account
Hm not sure. I connect fine most of the time. You should contact support about it.
Hey there you go, a nice objective fact, instead of:
which is just throwing out a statement with nothing to back it up.
So now we have a fact, 3 Flak Frigates 1 shot a 400 hp (heavy?) vet. Now we need more. How many heavy vets does it take to kill a Flak Frig before all heavy vets are dead? Does the repair hp outrun the ROF of a 2 Flac Frigs? (meaning can a supported heavy frig live through sustained 2 Flak Frigs firing? Can the reinforcement time of the heavy vets get back above the number needed to kill 1 Flak Frig faster than the Flak Frig can be replaced itself?
If we get formations and support working correctly, and we find that 3 Flak frigs can take down even number RU spent heavy vets every time, or 1.5 to 2x every time, then we can talk numbers. But if I can product a near even or better RU, even or better research time, and even or production time and hold down or overcome with reinforcements the magic Flak numbers, then we have balance.
For you to come in and just blankety disregard every tactical or strategic use of units because you did some maths and your maths are perfect is insulting. You may in fact be right, on all accounts, but there is so much more to balancing a strategy game like this than pure HP vs DMG that your selling everyone here short by trying to balance on it alone.
If you want to be useful, which I know you do or you wouldn’t be trying here, then take it unit by unit, situation by situation, scenario by scenario. Not just HP vs DMG. Make a thread about 1 unit vs 1 unit with it’s applicable supporting units so we can DEBATE the intricacies of it use and the wide reaching ramifications of a change.
And last. Stop getting defensive or taking offense to what we are saying. I payed you two deserved complements in my post, and you chose to belittle me for a single piece of it. Bad form. We both want the same thing.
And for the record. I can beat a good HW2 player. Maybe not a great just yet, but I’m holding my own out there. And this is as much a product of having to relearn the game as it may be balance issues. Maybe you’d like to prove me wrong?
I know HW1 and HW2 are wildly different. I played them both. I absolutely loved HW1. HW2 was ok, at best, from my perspective. If the HW2 engine can’t implement HW1 functionality, it won’t be Homeworld. No amount of balancing will overcome that.
Look at the numbers, man.
Oh it looks like something messed up on parsing accuracy, but I’ll get that updated in a moment.
Anyway, you can see that for kus heavy vettes they have guns.
Each do 76.44-78.26 damage per shot. 2.55 second refire time.
That’s 30.33 dps assuming 100% accuracy(which they’re not.
You can see theri range is 1650, while Flak frigates are 3k
So your answer is… well generally the supply cap of heavy corvettes would die just trying to get into range of 5-10 flaks. You could test it vs someone. Make 40 heavy corvettes or whatever vs their 10 flak. Or even 5 flak. I did test a lot vs AI myself to see how different units perform against others.
Now once flaks get their bug fix to do half damage, it won’t be quite so bad, but at 30DPS they are going to take forever to take down a 25600 hp flak frigate.
And there you could see from that game…
That was my 3rd time playing 1v1 vs humans.
You (and others) really discount how much theoretical knowledge accounts for things.
You’re a much better player that had more ideas and tricks than me. You have FAR FAR more practice, even having played in a tournament.
It’s just like Broodwar and SC2 both where you have older and more creative players that beat more mechanically skilled players at the start, until the younger players wise up to those strategies and copy them, performing them better.
I think I deserve a lot more respect from the “I play in tournaments and never see you play so I know more” crowd. I showed that what I said was true, was true. It’s certainly possible to figure out a lot more purely from numbers than practicing and playing a lot.
I gave you the most favorable map that gives you a starting boost to resources and was large, two things that HW1 races need to perform a bit better. Still only lost because of a bug I didn’t know about.
And the next time, I showed that was I’ve been saying is true is true (not that the first time didn’t). I choked you off from mining with the early advantage. Killed the research before grav came out (After that I’m actually thinking I could have just gone double fighter production->double bomber and killed research before you even got support frig research done…)
Though you did get your own bug effecting you the second game, I’m pretty sure you knew that one wouldn’t have changed the outcome like the first one did.
And yes, in the first game, even without the bug I suppose it would have been possible for you to win. You at least would have had to jump your MS.
So… pretty sure I proved you wrong, right? But I respect you as a player. I’ve said this before, but I think you missed it. It was just really hard to communicate with someone I respect as a player when they want to disrespect objective information and all the testing I’ve done just because I don’t have the free time to actually practice the game.
You were a very tough opponent, despite all your disadvantages playing a HW1 race.
And hopefully that goes to show that I know what I’m talking about when it comes to balance even if I can’t play hardly ever. I’ve watched you guys play a lot on streams, either way. I’ve really found in many games you learn a lot from watching people play or replays that you actually learn from simply playing, on top of that.
If there are bugs like that salvage corv and torps one that effects balance, clearly those should be fixed and don’t discount what I’ve said.
And for the bug, for those that don’t know, torps won’t shoot at salvage corvettes that are heading toward what they want to latch onto, or when they’re latched onto something.
I think it’s a bug that has to do with how many units are flagged to not attack something that has allies in the way. (which… shouldn’t be flagged on torps. It’s not for heavy missile frigs, so maybe I’m wrong)
But, allies WEREN’T in the way, and they still won’t attack.
It’s totally different behavior from how marine/infilfrator frigates get targeted.
If I was more experienced and knew about that bug, I certainly would have gone flaks sooner(like in the next game). I knew salvage corvettes would be coming but I had thought torps would hard counter them, not knowing of that bug.
The research ship is absolutely a problem. Even knowing what you were going for, and trying to manage my RU as best as possible to get a support frig out, it still went down. and that, again was trying to build straight to it
This I think is game breaking. Either the research ship needs WAAAY more hit points, or we need to be able to jump it, for like, 10 RU
Edit: This may stop me from playing completely if enough people start going for it. I do have one more counter I would like to try, but if it becomes a game of “hey look, a HW1 player, lets go kill his research ship before he can research his second tech” then I won’t be playing until something is done about it.
I would hope they’d release a decent balance patch and you wouldn’t have to quit. I enjoy seeing you playing in the tournaments.
And yeah I forgot to mention in my earlier post how you knew EXACTLY what I was going to do before the match started, which should be a huge advantage assuming HW1 balance isn’t just completely broken like it is.
I didn’t know what you would do, and I didn’t bother even making a probe because I just knew you had limited options.
I didn’t know that from practicing versus anyone… I just know from knowing all the numbers, and having a good idea in my head about what could be possible. That accounts for a lot.
It was really clever how you pinned your research ship to your mothership and sandwiched the carrier over top, that way both the carrier and MS guns could shoot my bombers AND they had really limited angles they could attack the research vessel.
But yeah, it still didn’t work, like I said. There’s nothing the best HW1 player can do against a HW2 player that simply understands the huge weaknesses.
Yes you could buff research vessel but…:
Personally I think my solution of giving HW1 production modules is best. Obviously I’m bias, but I thought through it a lot.
Firstly, It means you can build a production building while researching, like HW2 races can. This allows you to “tech switch” easier. HW1 research really locks your tech down in that branching tree.
This means you don’t need to start out with research just like HW2 races don’t.
The downside is obviously that they’re destroyable, and you need to make one for each production ship. But I think those are upsides from a design standpoint because secondly:
Lets assume HW1 ships got buffed a lot to be on par with HW2 ones, and they weren’t stuck in a research hole where they can now get things out just as fast.
Well then HW1 is OP as hell.
See in HW2 vs HW2, you can stop destroyers from coming out by killing the capital ship production facility. You can stop BCs from coming out by killing its cap ship production facility or the shipyard.
Against HW1s you have to kill the Mothership, which is BS by comparison. Luckily it’s not a problem now since they’re so much weaker, but it WOULD be one if they were otherwise up to par.
Assymetrical balance is a great thing, but that part of it is way too much assymetry.
As for buffing Research Vessel itself… Well you may have noticed it has MORE hp than your collectors, but it dies easier to basically everything. They are super fragile, yep.
That’s because its armor type makes it take full damage from basically everything, while collectors generally take 40-80% damage. That’s another thing I changed in my balance mod, giving them the same armor type as collectors.
Like I would always use the example of how Interceptors will kill Research Vessel faster than a HW1 player can stop it. But really, bombers are better at it. Still I use the example of Interceptors because it’s even more stupid that that works so well. Interceptors do far more damage to Research Vessels than they do Collectors when at the very least it should take bombers to do the job.
Even with that buff I gave them in my mod, to have resArmour type, it’s still bad and not enough to make HW1 viable. You still only have like one 120 second research finished by the time I’m killing it. I could just wait another 30 seconds and have 6 bombers instead of 4, which will be long before you get grav well or defenders out.
HW1 race need a lot of research times reduced if it’s not going to go the production module route… But not going that route I think is even more of a balancing nightmare.
Of course it’d be great if HW1 Deathmatch mode doesn’t have those sort of changes, and is much more like original HW1 balance. What I’m always talking about is balancing a game that includes both HW1 and HW2 playing with and against one another.
I’ve just started scrolling past your drivel, you don’t seem to take on-board what anyone and everyone is saying, you don’t even acknowledge any of the nice things people say. You are on the defensive.
I’ll say it again for your little young arrogant mind: If @ratamaq could play HW1 how it originally played, you would struggle immensely. Until you understand that, you will get resistance on everything you say.
Okay you win. Let me try and word this in a way that admits defeat without being TOO inaccurate. Lets see… Ratamaq would wreck me if he could use his 0 units with proper formation, tactics to defend his research vessel. No balance problem here at all, just missing that proper behavior for his 0 units!
Being so wrong with so much confidence and aggression is cute. Welp. Thread derailed. Thanks, @Moonquake_BiB.
Sorry for sharing my knowledge with people. That such an arrogant thing to do. It’s so condescending of me to correct someone’s fanciful dreams with actual facts.
The only problem here is that you don’t read, you don’t want to learn, and you don’t like being corrected.
You’re absolute, without a doubt, 100% wrong before and still wrong that making HW1 races play like they did in HW1 is all that it would take to make them competitive. I’m really dumbfounded that you’d continue to insist on it in the fact of overwhelming evidence(that you don’t want to know about) to the contrary.
Who is “everyone” anyway? It’s just you saying this. Most others understand it’s a combination all of balance, bugs, and mechanics issues.
Lol, cute reply.
“Wreck” and “Struggle” have two completely different meanings, this is your issue. You read a comment and go all defensive. You just backed up everything I’ve said.
You say I’m “100%” wrong, yet I’ve never said you were wrong, I said your argument is pointless until HW1 plays how HW1 should. Balancing can only be considered when the function of the game has been rectified, or worked on.
Not quite sure how I’ve derailed the thread either. Pointless comment is pointless.
The game can be balanced better, then balanced more as bugs are fixed and mechanics (re)introduced.
You’re also not understanding how formations & tactics will also heavily buff HW2 units just the same. Why should working unit behavior and control be a HW1 race only feature?
A lack of a proper lobby and a multiplayer chat is really hurting the community. This game is not remastered it’s downgraded. I have done playing this game and right now I am waiting for a proper multiplayer lobby before I even consider continue playing this game. I assume a lot of people are doing the same.