Did you link your steam account to shift?
yes i did link my steam account
Hm not sure. I connect fine most of the time. You should contact support about it.
Hey there you go, a nice objective fact, instead of:
which is just throwing out a statement with nothing to back it up.
So now we have a fact, 3 Flak Frigates 1 shot a 400 hp (heavy?) vet. Now we need more. How many heavy vets does it take to kill a Flak Frig before all heavy vets are dead? Does the repair hp outrun the ROF of a 2 Flac Frigs? (meaning can a supported heavy frig live through sustained 2 Flak Frigs firing? Can the reinforcement time of the heavy vets get back above the number needed to kill 1 Flak Frig faster than the Flak Frig can be replaced itself?
If we get formations and support working correctly, and we find that 3 Flak frigs can take down even number RU spent heavy vets every time, or 1.5 to 2x every time, then we can talk numbers. But if I can product a near even or better RU, even or better research time, and even or production time and hold down or overcome with reinforcements the magic Flak numbers, then we have balance.
For you to come in and just blankety disregard every tactical or strategic use of units because you did some maths and your maths are perfect is insulting. You may in fact be right, on all accounts, but there is so much more to balancing a strategy game like this than pure HP vs DMG that your selling everyone here short by trying to balance on it alone.
If you want to be useful, which I know you do or you wouldn’t be trying here, then take it unit by unit, situation by situation, scenario by scenario. Not just HP vs DMG. Make a thread about 1 unit vs 1 unit with it’s applicable supporting units so we can DEBATE the intricacies of it use and the wide reaching ramifications of a change.
And last. Stop getting defensive or taking offense to what we are saying. I payed you two deserved complements in my post, and you chose to belittle me for a single piece of it. Bad form. We both want the same thing.
And for the record. I can beat a good HW2 player. Maybe not a great just yet, but I’m holding my own out there. And this is as much a product of having to relearn the game as it may be balance issues. Maybe you’d like to prove me wrong?
I know HW1 and HW2 are wildly different. I played them both. I absolutely loved HW1. HW2 was ok, at best, from my perspective. If the HW2 engine can’t implement HW1 functionality, it won’t be Homeworld. No amount of balancing will overcome that.
Look at the numbers, man.
Oh it looks like something messed up on parsing accuracy, but I’ll get that updated in a moment.
Anyway, you can see that for kus heavy vettes they have guns.
Each do 76.44-78.26 damage per shot. 2.55 second refire time.
That’s 30.33 dps assuming 100% accuracy(which they’re not.
You can see theri range is 1650, while Flak frigates are 3k
So your answer is… well generally the supply cap of heavy corvettes would die just trying to get into range of 5-10 flaks. You could test it vs someone. Make 40 heavy corvettes or whatever vs their 10 flak. Or even 5 flak. I did test a lot vs AI myself to see how different units perform against others.
Now once flaks get their bug fix to do half damage, it won’t be quite so bad, but at 30DPS they are going to take forever to take down a 25600 hp flak frigate.
And there you could see from that game…
That was my 3rd time playing 1v1 vs humans.
You (and others) really discount how much theoretical knowledge accounts for things.
You’re a much better player that had more ideas and tricks than me. You have FAR FAR more practice, even having played in a tournament.
It’s just like Broodwar and SC2 both where you have older and more creative players that beat more mechanically skilled players at the start, until the younger players wise up to those strategies and copy them, performing them better.
I think I deserve a lot more respect from the “I play in tournaments and never see you play so I know more” crowd. I showed that what I said was true, was true. It’s certainly possible to figure out a lot more purely from numbers than practicing and playing a lot.
I gave you the most favorable map that gives you a starting boost to resources and was large, two things that HW1 races need to perform a bit better. Still only lost because of a bug I didn’t know about.
And the next time, I showed that was I’ve been saying is true is true (not that the first time didn’t). I choked you off from mining with the early advantage. Killed the research before grav came out (After that I’m actually thinking I could have just gone double fighter production->double bomber and killed research before you even got support frig research done…)
Though you did get your own bug effecting you the second game, I’m pretty sure you knew that one wouldn’t have changed the outcome like the first one did.
And yes, in the first game, even without the bug I suppose it would have been possible for you to win. You at least would have had to jump your MS.
So… pretty sure I proved you wrong, right? But I respect you as a player. I’ve said this before, but I think you missed it. It was just really hard to communicate with someone I respect as a player when they want to disrespect objective information and all the testing I’ve done just because I don’t have the free time to actually practice the game.
You were a very tough opponent, despite all your disadvantages playing a HW1 race.
And hopefully that goes to show that I know what I’m talking about when it comes to balance even if I can’t play hardly ever. I’ve watched you guys play a lot on streams, either way. I’ve really found in many games you learn a lot from watching people play or replays that you actually learn from simply playing, on top of that.
If there are bugs like that salvage corv and torps one that effects balance, clearly those should be fixed and don’t discount what I’ve said.
And for the bug, for those that don’t know, torps won’t shoot at salvage corvettes that are heading toward what they want to latch onto, or when they’re latched onto something.
I think it’s a bug that has to do with how many units are flagged to not attack something that has allies in the way. (which… shouldn’t be flagged on torps. It’s not for heavy missile frigs, so maybe I’m wrong)
But, allies WEREN’T in the way, and they still won’t attack.
It’s totally different behavior from how marine/infilfrator frigates get targeted.
If I was more experienced and knew about that bug, I certainly would have gone flaks sooner(like in the next game). I knew salvage corvettes would be coming but I had thought torps would hard counter them, not knowing of that bug.
The research ship is absolutely a problem. Even knowing what you were going for, and trying to manage my RU as best as possible to get a support frig out, it still went down. and that, again was trying to build straight to it
This I think is game breaking. Either the research ship needs WAAAY more hit points, or we need to be able to jump it, for like, 10 RU
Edit: This may stop me from playing completely if enough people start going for it. I do have one more counter I would like to try, but if it becomes a game of “hey look, a HW1 player, lets go kill his research ship before he can research his second tech” then I won’t be playing until something is done about it.
I would hope they’d release a decent balance patch and you wouldn’t have to quit. I enjoy seeing you playing in the tournaments.
And yeah I forgot to mention in my earlier post how you knew EXACTLY what I was going to do before the match started, which should be a huge advantage assuming HW1 balance isn’t just completely broken like it is.
I didn’t know what you would do, and I didn’t bother even making a probe because I just knew you had limited options.
I didn’t know that from practicing versus anyone… I just know from knowing all the numbers, and having a good idea in my head about what could be possible. That accounts for a lot.
It was really clever how you pinned your research ship to your mothership and sandwiched the carrier over top, that way both the carrier and MS guns could shoot my bombers AND they had really limited angles they could attack the research vessel.
But yeah, it still didn’t work, like I said. There’s nothing the best HW1 player can do against a HW2 player that simply understands the huge weaknesses.
Yes you could buff research vessel but…:
Personally I think my solution of giving HW1 production modules is best. Obviously I’m bias, but I thought through it a lot.
Firstly, It means you can build a production building while researching, like HW2 races can. This allows you to “tech switch” easier. HW1 research really locks your tech down in that branching tree.
This means you don’t need to start out with research just like HW2 races don’t.
The downside is obviously that they’re destroyable, and you need to make one for each production ship. But I think those are upsides from a design standpoint because secondly:
Lets assume HW1 ships got buffed a lot to be on par with HW2 ones, and they weren’t stuck in a research hole where they can now get things out just as fast.
Well then HW1 is OP as hell.
See in HW2 vs HW2, you can stop destroyers from coming out by killing the capital ship production facility. You can stop BCs from coming out by killing its cap ship production facility or the shipyard.
Against HW1s you have to kill the Mothership, which is BS by comparison. Luckily it’s not a problem now since they’re so much weaker, but it WOULD be one if they were otherwise up to par.
Assymetrical balance is a great thing, but that part of it is way too much assymetry.
As for buffing Research Vessel itself… Well you may have noticed it has MORE hp than your collectors, but it dies easier to basically everything. They are super fragile, yep.
That’s because its armor type makes it take full damage from basically everything, while collectors generally take 40-80% damage. That’s another thing I changed in my balance mod, giving them the same armor type as collectors.
Like I would always use the example of how Interceptors will kill Research Vessel faster than a HW1 player can stop it. But really, bombers are better at it. Still I use the example of Interceptors because it’s even more stupid that that works so well. Interceptors do far more damage to Research Vessels than they do Collectors when at the very least it should take bombers to do the job.
Even with that buff I gave them in my mod, to have resArmour type, it’s still bad and not enough to make HW1 viable. You still only have like one 120 second research finished by the time I’m killing it. I could just wait another 30 seconds and have 6 bombers instead of 4, which will be long before you get grav well or defenders out.
HW1 race need a lot of research times reduced if it’s not going to go the production module route… But not going that route I think is even more of a balancing nightmare.
Of course it’d be great if HW1 Deathmatch mode doesn’t have those sort of changes, and is much more like original HW1 balance. What I’m always talking about is balancing a game that includes both HW1 and HW2 playing with and against one another.
I’ve just started scrolling past your drivel, you don’t seem to take on-board what anyone and everyone is saying, you don’t even acknowledge any of the nice things people say. You are on the defensive.
I’ll say it again for your little young arrogant mind: If @ratamaq could play HW1 how it originally played, you would struggle immensely. Until you understand that, you will get resistance on everything you say.
Okay you win. Let me try and word this in a way that admits defeat without being TOO inaccurate. Lets see… Ratamaq would wreck me if he could use his 0 units with proper formation, tactics to defend his research vessel. No balance problem here at all, just missing that proper behavior for his 0 units!
Being so wrong with so much confidence and aggression is cute. Welp. Thread derailed. Thanks, @Moonquake_BiB.
Sorry for sharing my knowledge with people. That such an arrogant thing to do. It’s so condescending of me to correct someone’s fanciful dreams with actual facts.
The only problem here is that you don’t read, you don’t want to learn, and you don’t like being corrected.
You’re absolute, without a doubt, 100% wrong before and still wrong that making HW1 races play like they did in HW1 is all that it would take to make them competitive. I’m really dumbfounded that you’d continue to insist on it in the fact of overwhelming evidence(that you don’t want to know about) to the contrary.
Who is “everyone” anyway? It’s just you saying this. Most others understand it’s a combination all of balance, bugs, and mechanics issues.
Lol, cute reply.
“Wreck” and “Struggle” have two completely different meanings, this is your issue. You read a comment and go all defensive. You just backed up everything I’ve said.
You say I’m “100%” wrong, yet I’ve never said you were wrong, I said your argument is pointless until HW1 plays how HW1 should. Balancing can only be considered when the function of the game has been rectified, or worked on.
Not quite sure how I’ve derailed the thread either. Pointless comment is pointless.
The game can be balanced better, then balanced more as bugs are fixed and mechanics (re)introduced.
You’re also not understanding how formations & tactics will also heavily buff HW2 units just the same. Why should working unit behavior and control be a HW1 race only feature?
A lack of a proper lobby and a multiplayer chat is really hurting the community. This game is not remastered it’s downgraded. I have done playing this game and right now I am waiting for a proper multiplayer lobby before I even consider continue playing this game. I assume a lot of people are doing the same.
I’ve not been questioning whether the game can be balanced better. There are glaring balance issues.
Anyway, I surrender. Aged out …
Game Mechanics (Primarily HW1) > Balancing (HW1/HW2)
We are here to talk about Homeworld. Not other forum members. The condecending and passive-aggressive replies can stop now. And by “can” I mean “will.”
I’m from the US and been clanning with these crazy brits for 15 years. If you figure out a way to get them to stop arguing, you could quit this forum mod job and make millions.
Nice analysis based on nothing.
I just said based on what I’ve read. I’ve read your changelog. It’s stupid. You disregard the rock-paper-scissors mechanism too much, which is a core element of HW2 gameplay.
@ynvaser, You read it without context, or just didn’t understand it, then.
I did not disregard RPS, for example. Yes, there is generally less RPS than the HW2 races, but that’s how HW1 was. I made the units fit the same roll that people who played HW1 would expect, where possible.
No reason why HW1 races can’t be less RPS than HW2 races and still be balanced. Just like Vaygr has more RPS in early tech than Hiigaran does.
Balance takes hours. Reintroducing all these different mechanics and such will take weeks.
Why not give the game playable balance now? It doesn’t at all get in the way of introducing mechanics changes/fixes later.
It sounds like you simply want to punish everyone else with unplayable HW1 races until you get what YOU want.
Look, I hear you. You have made a lot of good points concerning glaring balance issues with the units themselves, and proved it to me by sniping my research ship before I could get my second tech researched. Could I have held you off had I gone fighter instead of frig first as a counter? (The third test you were too tired to try) maybe. But I’ll quote myself from another thread in the hopes that you understand where we are coming from.
So you see. I believe you with your analysis. At least, I believe you’ve put a lot of time and effort crunching numbers and you have done your homework on how the game is played. But the reality is, as a self admitted person who has only played a hand full of MP games, you’re coning off like a pit crew mechanic trying to tell race car drivers the way we know how to drive is not important.