On a somewhat related note, and a small Cyberpunk 2077 spoiler. I think it would have been pretty cool if angel were brought back in a similar fashion to what happened to Alt Cunningham in cyberpunk.
Characters âreallyâ die in BL1 too. I canât think of any situation where curing death itself doesnât completely â â â â up the story in some way. New-U basically has to be non-canon because any explanation will just raise more questions. âJack deleted Roland from the system!â Why not delete everyone? Why is he not in the system himself? Just say that pushing the suicide hotline button is the canon choice and forget it.
Of course, then they had to go and do the Vic mission which screws everything up AGAIN.
Oh, and I also hate Typhon. Just throwing that in there.
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No, they really couldnât.
And yes, she is:
I see people comparing her to Pickle from TPS, but itâs really not even close. At least one (or is it more? Been awhile since I played TPS) of his quests gives a decent unique as a reward, so itâs worth putting up with try-hard (and failing) nasal rhyming slang in that piss-poor whatever-accent-heâs-trying-to-do to finish his quests
And then, if memory serves, you never have to see him again.
He also didnât get a fan-favourite former PC killed in the most stupidly brazen contrived way possible in the entire franchise.
And then blame another fan-favourite former PC for it, and then the second-rate writers --blatantly contrived again-- to just have Lilith meekly sit there and take it in a way thatâs completely antithetical to everything her character ever was after she and Rol founded the Crimson Raiders.
Why? Because itâs Ava! Guys, Avaâs here, and Avaâs the awesomest thing ever, and sheâs THE NEW HERO! Guys! Guys?
And then contrive yet again âAva, Sanctuaryâs yours!â as if Lilâs doing a bad operatic aria in a third-rate production no-one cares bout.
The only things that give any substance at all to Ava are 100% contrived, totally hackneyed, and come at the cost of other characters in ways that Ava doesnât deserve, and did nothing to earn.
Look, this is all Creative Writing 101, FFS --I remember I used to write in-your-face self-inserts like these. I was around 14 --Iâm 47 now, and whilst Iâm hardly anyoneâs idea of a Hugo-award calibre writer, I submit that Borderlands doesnât need that to be done right (I mean, come on --Anthony frigging Burch, OK? If he got it right in BL2, then whatâs this farm-teamâs excuse):
It just needs the basics of a coherent plot done right with at least one good major character (ref: Handsome Jack) to anchor the plot and some intelligent pop-culture references (ref.: General Knoxxâ DLC and GL&T from BL3), a few --a few, not every 10 seconds-- fart/fat/poop/penis jokes, and there ya go.
Whoever wrote Ava should have stuck to obscure fanfics on Archive of our Own, and all the dev-accounts neg-repping this wonât change that.
Yes, writing of at least âbasicâ quality matters. They started down that road themselves with General Knoxxâ DLC, it was really that one (and Robolution, too) that set the tone/feel for future installments of the series.
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Sadly they do, what I was trying to convey was that Burch â â â â â â up by putting a central and serious part of the story (Rolands death) ânextâ to the not serious and absurd side quest for laughs.
And yes technically the revive mechanic has to be non canon. Itâs just that I have a hard time accepting this when, like I said, in 1 it is explained in a fitting in-universe logic and part of the lore (like I mentioned itâs the first thing you do) and second Burch admitting he hadnât even played BL1 till long into the development process and then backs himselfs into a corner and just declares it non canon just for convenience. Letâs also not forget that this was also past Borderlands 2 launch because the mentioned attention brought by said quest. Edit: And the added New-U dialogue making it a constant reminder.
Oh and regarding Pickle, Iâm not sure how many know this but he is also fleshed out and given some character development in Fantastic Voyage, through hidden Echoes around The Motherlessboard and he chimes in together with Tiny Tina during the TVHM version of Athenaâs narration, which should mean that Athena and Janey took him with them to Sanctuary.
I donât really like any of the child characters in Borderlands but I found him atleast partially tolerable, something I canât claim about Ava.
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Agree to disagree I guess. To me making it any part of the story at all immediately removes any narrative tension and the danger of Pandora as a setting. Itâs like Claptrap breaking the fourth wall to explain the Stash in my opinion.
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If they could make Claptrap, the pathetic incompetent series mascot, into a sympathetic character with Claptastic, they could salvage Ava. She is annoying, extremely so, but she is far from the worst thing to happen to Borderlands. Itâs not like sheâs the anti-christ or anything.
Doesnât mean Iâm interested in their attempts to redeem her, but really itâs not like they couldnât. I just donât think anyone would care unless she became a god-tier char by the end of it.
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I feel like the new-U system was always a difficult one to fit in. Like âPandora is SUPER dangerous, but if youâre rich you can live foreverâ, but then it takes a percentage of your cash and nothing if youâre bankrupt?
But yeah, BL1 included it in the game too much to hand wave away, so they probably should have just come up with decent explanations, but gearbox have apparently always sucked at sticking to their own Lore/Canon, so itâs not surprising. Instead theyâve made it that fast travel and quick change stations ARE canon and new-U stations arenât (and just ignore the fact that fast travel stations ARE new-U stations in BL1) to dig themselves out of having to answer some tough questions.
Not too tough - the bandits are those who got kicked off the new-U system, or theyâre on the system but not premium members so have slow respawns and thatâs why they reappear when you return to maps, or whatever - but they wanted to focus on making the story they wanted instead of fitting it to an actual explanation.
And sure, you can say itâs just a game mechanic, donât overthink it, but the fact that some parts of the games treat it as canon means its not that simple. Gearboxâs response has been to declare anything that treats new-U stations as real arenât canon either, but again this just causes problems cus now we donât know whatâs canon and whatâs not. Especially given that the team making the games keeps changing and what Lore/Canon each team decides to use changes along with them.
So yeah, I kinda prefer to treat as much stuff as possible as canon, especially if I personally experienced it in-game, and make up my own explanation. Until a borderland game comes out with no respawns and a character specifically says ânew-U stations have never really existed, Marcus just made them upâ or something, Iâll stick to what happens in-game as being âfactâ and what gearbox says as opinion, but thatâs just me. Lol.
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The only problem with that is that the team who made claptrap sympathetic in claptastic voyage (2k Australia) are gone and the team at gearbox now are not even the ones who made BL2. Theyâre the team who made Ava as she is, so we canât count on them to improve her, let alone do what happened to good olâ claptrap.
⌠wouldnât hurt your mum or dad, he wonât hurt you or me, the mention of his very name fills us all with glee. Heâs CLAPPY âŚ
(to be clear, I mostly like Ava - and Pickle - but I can see the flaws and problems)
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In Borderlands 1 they also ARE the quick change stations, if you want to call it that way. Kinda makes sense, saving your characters looks by uploading your DNA. If you know what I mean.
The thing is Gearbox really goes out of their way to make it all consistent in-universe. Ever read the tiny text on the dropped skin SDU item itself or the quick change stations screen? It basically tells you that the head customizations are not âmerelyâ the player changing their characters look but actually alterations to your characters DNA.
So at the end of the day the statement that they are not canon is nothing more than a lame excuse from a person that couldnât even bother to atleast play the game that he wrote the sequel for, atleast thatâs how I feel about it.
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God I love this comment. I 100% agree. And maybe, just maybe, theyâll try to do just that, with this dlc. Since they canât just take her out of the game at this point, they might try to redeem her character. Though thatâs just a big fat maybe.
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Just to make this a little clearer Iâm not thinking a revive mechanic being canon is something super awesome, itâs just for something that was pretty much an unquestioned given in gaming in general, Borderlands actually took its time to back it up with an explanation even though it really didnât had to.
Like we already realized this obviously leads to more problems than it solves but like noted they could have rectified it in other ways instead of simply to cover up for Burchâs mistake.
What I find interesting is that I feel the complete opposite about the New-U stations nullifying any danger Pandora poses because Claptrap precisely urges you to upload your DNA especially because Pandora is such a dangerous place! You basically have to set up your second chance before even encountering your first enemies, because you will probably die then and there already just a few minutes after setting foot on this planet.
Also even if you can get revived, getting mauled by Skags etc. surely isnât a pleasant experience so the characters would want to make sure they stay alive. Itâs not like they drop into Terramorphous arena thinking âWe just die over and over till we get it right, no biggyâ that and the New-U banter in Borderlands 2 also makes it clear that getting revived isnât something benefitical⌠reminding you your just a clone, forfeiting your right to propagate etc.
If anything itâs the New-U fee that should be non canon.
Also broader speaking, there are games where dying is part of the lore and gameplay, and is canon such as several Souls-like games where the characters basically have to be undead and such so they even have a chance to overcome the horrors their worlds are posing, just as the player. Death in these worlds also comes with the loss of your memories (the regain souls mechanic) , so too something you would want to avoid even if you basically are immortal.
Sorry if you were strictly speaking about the New-U stations in Borderlands.
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No: False equivalence is false --The two are not even remotely the same.
One is played strictly for laughs, and even the major quests/plots that involve him donât really have permanent consequences that extend too much beyond him in any ways that we really care about.
(I mean, does it really matter that much that Jack shut down the production line, especially given that almost everyone in-universe --that weâve interacted with/heard about at least-- detests CL4P-TP units? That becomes even less relevant to us once Clappy re-starts production in the BL2 credit-roll slides, BTW.)
The worthless, insulting Mary Sue self-insert, on the other hand, is played 100% dead-straight, and itâs painfully obvious that the âwritersâ took her 100% dead-seriously, to the point that they were willing to twist a whole pile of laughably poor plot-contrivances around her to make her matter, then force her on us accordingly, and then keep shoving her in our faces.
Not the same, at all.
Clappy never needed salvaging (and his TPS add-on really isnât all that great, either, TBH --Infuriatingly bad map design/layout and stilted quest-flow holds it back, like almost all of TPS. The Robolution DLC in BL1 is much better.)
I hate to break it to you, but Ava was, and remains a non-starter. If you took her out of the plot completely, it would change almost nothing, and maybe even pacify some (some, not all) of the criticism of the base-gameâs story.
Put her on a bus, or have Krieg butcher her slowly and messily for getting his beloved killed whilst we all watch and cheer, or just have her stupidly bumble into something way too big for her --because sheâs demonstrably just an idiot like that-- but she needs to go, and stay gone.
Clappy doesnât, and shouldnât, even with his hilariously bad dialogue in BL3. Because heâs Clappy --saying stupid â â â â stupidly is what he does.
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My one BIGGEST gripe with Ava is how maya tells here right after the rampager fight and before she gets killed that being a vault hunter is more than ârunning towards the fireâ which is true for any borderlands game cause grinding in a nutshell, then Ava continuously whines about not running towards the fire and then in the end Lilith AGREES with her, puts a 13 YEAR OLD in command and just disappears in a flash. I CANT BELIVE ANYONE THOUGHT THIS WAS GOOD WRITING
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Ava is responsible for the death of Maya and she belongs in a prison cell for man slaughter at the least. But Iâm sure gbx will make her the new star of bls they know they made a " Last of us " mistake and now they have no choice but to move forward with her and watch the bls series crash and burn .
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I donât disagree with you, but Claptrap is insufferable in this game.
He went from funny and awkward, to totally obnoxious and awkward to the extreme.
Almost everything he says is either not funny, or just feels forced, as if in an attempt to sound funny and mimicking his personality from the previous games. Heâs pretty much a different character this time, and I think this partly because of his new VA.
Claptrap is unfortunately another victim of the Flanderization trope, where they went overboard with this character, to the point of making him a nuisance.
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Not to mention you have to watch him get sucked up to the window every time you go through the campaign, forcing you to give up some lifeclock for that whole segment.
Iâd agree that Claptrap is more obnoxious in BL3, but not sure if VA is to blame. Itâs mostly what he says and does, and thatâs on writers, me thinks.
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People hate the Calypsos as Villains.
People hate Ava as a protagonist.
Calypsos kill Maya & people blame Ava meanwhile in cold blood the Calypsos:
Kill Montgomery Jakobs
Massacre the Sun Smashers and decapitate and perpetually torture Vic
Defeat Lilith and leave her beaten for their followers to kill
Experiment on prisoners leading to their deaths via the âannointingâ process.
Avaâs worst offence was doing the same thing Lilith did in BL2, enter a Vault when she was told not to, and try to confront the enemy. They both failed and their enemies killed someone they cared about, whose role they inherited.
Maya could have left Ava on Athenas instead of having her come with.
Ava as a character existed only to antagonize Lilith for most of the game, which is ironic. They have the same arch, but Ava doesnât have the benefit of being a playable character in the first game before being promoted.
Another odd quirk is how first Roland, then Lilith, went from gung ho and inspired in echoes and actions to indecisive and misguided once they officially started leading the Crimson Raiders and handing out missions to Vault Hunters. I mean, I know itâs a plot contrivance to give players something to do, but itâs counter-intuitive to hear or witness the heroism of these two in cut scenes and lost echoes or side missions that take place before you start getting missions from them, and then they become inept or so awkward they need you to do everything.
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Thatâs actually somewhat believable - not every heroic soldier is capable of leading a platoon/company, forget the army. Not sure if it was intended by writers, though.
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We all agree Ava isnât much of an asset as a character but please keep the cringey violence-p*rn fantasies to yourself. I hate the awful writing too, and I acknowledge Ava is more a manifestation of the writing teamâs mistakes than a character. But this is excessive. And honestly embarrassing.
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