Do you guys realize what they are balancing around?

Let me see here what the baseline is, hmmm yes a TVHM. everyone wants to be elitist and take their guns and builds to m3 shaft. That is in no way gbx’s interest or idea about balance. They are mostly looking into either base TVHM or incoming Base UVHM viability.

mayhem 3 is all about players and their inventory’s ability to deal with the ■■■■■■■■ shitstorm that the mode is. however everyone is falling into the trap of hey game should be ballanced about mayhem 3. NO it is a temporary badly executed endgame substitute that should last long enough till Story DLC and UVHM hits. Get me a single line from dev team where their intentions ever revolve around mayhem 3. these devs don even play it for christs sake, it is for nutters like us to take everything to the maximum level. The lob might not look like a gun you take in m3 arenas but who says gbx cares. they want it to be good and fun for baseline difficulty and only one they have is TVHM.

go take your nerfed guns and nades into regular TVHM and see how “nerfy” they feel.

They never balanced bl2 around op levels they never balanced pre sequel around cryo’'s power , i am plenty sure all their design choices will be only applicable to whatever baseline difficulty they have. if anything devs mentioned they wanted to make mayhem 3 harder for people as some builds already did the content too easily.

I am elitist myself and i can never bring myself to play any difficulty level other than max difficulty setting allowed. But never ever have i thought that game should be tailored around that, it is fully up to me to make things work in that setting.


The did have an entire marketing campaign called “Let’s make some mayhem” and a tagline on their website before launch “Mayhem is coming”. It seems like Mayhem was a pretty relevant theme for them, you could almost say their intentions revolve around mayhem (though not specifically mayhem 3).

I completely agree with your point about the game really being tuned around TVHM. Which is just fine by me.


yep since mayhem is optional it is only up to a player. nobody forces anyone to play on m3. utter most of bl3 non vocal couch gamer community i am sure sits in baseline TVHM or even level 50 NVHM. now my case is different since i can not suffer easiness of TVHM so i am “forced” to do mayhem but then again it is only my fault.

I said something similar to this in another thread

If you would chart all the guns on power somehow and let’s say you had a scale of 1 to 100.

If you had 10 guns at around 90 power, 80 guns between 70 and 40 power and 10 guns at 10 power.

You want to address the 10 at 90 and 10 at 10. Brings those between 70 and 40.

You can’t bring the 70’s to 90 and the 40’s to 70 because that introduces power creep and trivializes the game.

You still get a range of guns and power levels and some might be nichely powerful in some set ups or situations or terrible in others. That is why every gun doesn’t need to be 50.

So we still get a range but you get rid of outliers and you have a great diversity of gear to use and options.

When you have 10 outliers those get 90% of the play and that is bad for the game.

Look at deputy sal for example, the orphan maker wasn’t a top tier gun but with the synergies that @DeputyChuck found it became powerful with mechanics, combined with skills, and other gear.

So we can still get Op set ups but not just plug and play op


Well said Derch. I completely agree, and love the shout out to @DeputyChuck
Where you at Chuck? :innocent:

edit: By the way, anyone else loving the “balance” to the Maggie. Its viable again! Loved using that last night. Great job on the Jakobs Balancing. loving it.


That’s why I tagged him lol


probably trying to break hellwalker or some regular jacobs shotty.


I think he’s just playing the game and learning it.

He is a family man with a job so time can be limited for many


often times in terms of longevity style beats function, not so powerful guns can and probably will fit a lot of specific builds aesthetics or challenge runs etc. I never ran skullmasher because it was in any situation beating p1mp or lyuda i ran it because i did jacobs runs and genuinely loved the gun’s aesthetic and feel as well. it is a damn shotgun sniper there was nothing else comparable ( i mean technically p1mpernel was strongest maliwan shotgun in game yes a shotgun lul)

they have a lot of guns designed behind the coms and skills that should perform once the synergy is discovered and if they buff them up a little bit that is only because they feel like gun is way too under tuned.

what they did with lyuda and hex was simply a fix and yet forum was panicking all day calling it a nerf.

If every synergy was so easily discovered bl would not last years, but for some reason people think they know it all already because they play this one meta setup they found.


Yup same here, also as a side note with how good Jakobs is I want it back.

What I like also is they are looking at player data, gathered with shift I assume. So if they see a gun is under performing, not in terms of damage but no body is using it they are likely going to look at it to fix it.

I love this personally because this is how I basically started my youtube with the good the bad and the ugly (coming back for bl3 soon) and I talked about why guns were under performing compared to others based on the balance of that gun.

So for example for this game I just did a video on the Sawbar (sorry for the plugs but relevant) and a lot of people told me it is bad in this game. I found it to be effective if you could manage the sweet spot, the issue is the sweet spot was too far away and you had a hard time keeping that range and it was too flat.

I want to convey this to gearbox (and im going to) so that if they see no one is using the sawbar, maybe we can help them fix it to make it more user friendly.

This is something we never had before as a community.

Too Scoops is another good example that shotgun was so cool but the damage penalty was too high. In this game we could give feed back to help them tune it.


i was and still am one of those people who said sawbar just does not feel right. უწმინდური მამაო ღორმენ. it would not be overstatement to say it was my most used AR in bl2. It is good but it is just not the sawbar it should be and making it godly could be something as simple as moving the split distance closer.

ofc they look at shift data only mad people believe people who do balancing changes come to forum to read the threads of couple angry men and kids -)) but it is hella cool to have some community badasses to speed up the process thanks for the great work and TGTBTA was a great series and surely shall continue.


Sorry it took so long to respond :slight_smile:

I’m still checking the forums almost daily, but right now Derch is right on the money: I’m just enjoying the ride and discovering the game as I go. I haven’t delved too deep into the meta but I have found a few things that I like. (So far, the Chomper is my favorite gun in the game :slight_smile: )

Remember how the Pimpernel was considered trash at first ?
And then someone pointed out how good it was ?
We’re at this stage now: As I’m finding legendaries, I try to imagine how the gimmick could be abused (example: I don’t know what people think of the Kill’O the Wisp, but I’ve cleared entire rooms with just that gun… turns out the tendrils are considered gun damage by the game, so they trigger Moze’s blue tree capstone)

I haven’t found anything to settle on yet and I’m waiting for the initial wave of balance fixes to be done to really delve into the game’s mechanics. Right now in the game, I see a lot of good, solid gear that cater to a playstyle or another… but not a whole lot of those weird guns that become crazy good in a very specific scenario… time and testing will reveal those.

I also only tried Moze (level 50) and Amara (level 21) so far…

…I miss the test dummy… :frowning:

Don’t worry, I’ll be posting guides and builds in no time :slight_smile:


Very good post. Thank you. Hadn’t hought of it that way. But it does make sense.

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If gearbox doesnt want to balance the game around Mayham mode they should remove the +500% loot modifier from it. THAT alone makes M3 the new baseline sorry to say. People dont play Mayham mode for the modifiers (well some do, people who got bored with the game and have everything already) but for the increased rewards.

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and they make it work don’t they? GB does not care if any specific individual is able to deal with m3 or not. they care if they can do tvhm content with the gun they might like. let’s say someone likes malak’s bane sniper/shottty they can use it to their hearts content in tvhm but in m3 settings? pass. Why do you think they only buffed clone and iron bear by 50%? because they are worried about slaughter sahft m3 viability? :smiley: they did it so both these pets will do decently in tvhm and they really do.

Not arguing your point of gun balance but they stated specifically they are looking to address pet and IB survivability in M3. They acknowledged the increased health was only the first step and are trying more ways to increase ib and pet builds in M3.
I think you’re right about the gun balance just thought it deserved to be said they are still considering the balance needs of M3 also :slight_smile:

Increased loot drops have no correlation on an intended design (or balance) baseline. The increased loot drops are to make up for the inherent frustration and random nature of the game mode. If you can put up with some incredibly annoying modifiers that affect a lot of your equipped weapons? Congrats! More loot!

That doesn’t mean the entire game should be balanced around it. It’s meant to be an outlier; not the core experience. +500% loot modifiers are not “standard”. They’re an exception.

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What bothers me isn’t just the nerfs, it’s also that I don’t really know what I “should” be doing in the game after I finish the main story. The next logical path that makes sense is to pick a build and work towards optimizing it as far as you can. But then Gearbox comes out with a set of nerfs that completely eradicates the last X weeks you’ve spent working toward the only apparent goal left in the game.

I really want to believe Gearbox knows what it’s doing. But then there are significant flaws in major aspects of the game (e.g., Mayhem mode just being a restart fest, having only 50 bank slots across all characters, can’t skip cut scenes) that leave me questioning. As a software engineer myself, I get that bugs are inevitable, but some of this stuff baffles me how it made it out of the gate.

The insult to injury is that it makes very little sense to nerf a single-player game so hard. It almost feels like I bought a red bike, then the manufacturer broke into my house and painted it blue.


The nerfs aren’t that hard though, so? I don’t really get that argument. They’re also partially walking-back nerfs that have turned out too severe (see: action skill trigger time for Moze and FL4K), so all you have to do is wait a week and see.

Less than a week, even. We’ve been getting balance hotfixes weekly, and it’s already the weekend. That’s a good thing if something was nerfed too hard, because it won’t be long before they see some love again.

I’m not arguing that they’re (all) bad. I’m arguing that the basis for them under the current risk-vs-reward state of the game makes no sense. All they’re effectively doing is adding X-more minutes onto something you’ve done 100 times already.

It is currently more efficient to farm legendaries by repetitively shooting at a wall of wood for 20 seconds than to go through 5 waves of slaughter shaft.

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