[Dominance Rework] P4CK Alpha

Not really. Zero had a much more fleshed out melee focus, Bloodwing was a completely different action skill than Deception, and had a much higher focus on big burst damage than Mord.

They were the same general archetype (ranger/assassin) but they still played very differently. And the pet was a huge part of that, the feeling a hologram gives is not the same as a friendly AI even if they both provide distraction.

Eh, I disagree. I just see a progression in a “Hunter” style character. Naturally as the series progressed, AS, regular skills and etc grew and got better but its still a pretty straightforward progression.

Rakks are Bloodwing, Fade Away is Deception. Mord and Zero could have melee focused builds (Zero’s was more fleshed out…theres progression) I mean, I could go on. It’s all there in the skill trees and COMS though.

Fl4k can be a sniper, gunslinger, ninja (SHOTGUN NINJA!!!) and now a beast master (progression of character type) He even has melee builds people are using. He’s a combo of the the first two and more.

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I agree Fl4k is just a mishmash of zero and mordeci. I blame the multiple action skills for the lack of beastmaster depth they have if they just had the 1 maybe gamma burst and focused primarily on that it probably would have created an all around better beastmaster but c’est la vie.

Not really. Not at all.

Bloodwing and Wolf may not have been able to kill bosses, but DT and Digi Jacks could on their own. For the amount of skills it takes to completely maximize FL4K’s pets, them not even contributing 25% of FL4K’s DPS vs single targets is hardly a pet build, especially when you need to use a class mod just to get them to taunt, which is something every other pet did naturally.

FL4K is a complete regression for Borderlands pet classes in just about every way.

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Well if you wanted the game to play like BL2 or TPS, then that explains everything. Its not BL2 or TPS. Just like BL2 was much different than BL1 in many ways.

I’d also wager your complaint centers more around viable pet builds doing the hardest content at the highest difficulty. THose things have always required specialized builds. So, in that vein, I’d agree that Red F4ng is probably the only viable pet build. But, 2 things:

  1. Its still a pet build and very Beast Master, so…theres that.
  2. Outside of the hardest content on the highest difficulties, there a metric f@ck ton of builds that you could use. Pets or otherwise.

Also, comparing them to Digi Jack and DT makes no sense to me, as Fl4k is not the natural progression of those characters. His AS is not a pet. He has a pet that follows him. So, naturally his pets will function differently than an all out action skill.

In any case, thats all I got to say. I think you just need more patience and more imagination. You’ll figure it out.

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Yes, because pets with FL4K’s level of investment (mostly with much less) have been able to do the hardest content easily. That FL4K’s pets can’t with double the pet damage most other abilities got, an action skill, several class mods, and an anointment is objectively a regression.

What about it is a pet build? The pet existing doesn’t make it a pet build.

Gaige builds where DT was a distraction weren’t considered pet builds. Wilhelm builds that just took Laser Guided weren’t considered pet builds. Digi-death builds weren’t considered pet builds in the same way digi-life builds were. What about Red Fang makes it a pet build? Your pet gets shot, you get buffed, it does little to no damage on the big enemies…that sounds like a turret.

Dude, Slaughter Shaft is still immensely difficult for pets. That hasn’t been the hardest content since last year. If pet builds were seemingly all the rage, why is it that there is barely anybody who is seriously exploring them? The dozen or so of us who do are pretty much in lock step agreement that they need serious work and that FL4K is terrible as a pet class.

See Gamma Burst AKA Promote the Ranks but nerfed to hell because it doesn’t actually increase the pet’s damage at base.

Patience - It’s been nearly a year and we don’t even have all of FL4K’s hunt skill scaling pet damage. The time for patience ended a while ago.

Creativity - [Build] Killer Queen - M10 Billion Damage Pet
It’s not like I’m some random mook coming out of the woodwork to bitch. Pet FL4K has literally been the only thing I’ve played with for the entirety of the game. I won’t say I know everything, but I will say with confidence that I know 99% of everything there is to know about pets. And with this being the last level cap added, there are no new tricks to learn. The level of performance the pets are at now is pretty much where they’ll stay. And even with all the points we have and tricks we’ve learned, I can’t even get my Jabber pet to one AC Traunt with 150% amp from Execute, and considering he’s a story boss in an early area of the game that is easily destroyed by dozens of other builds, I think that says a lot.

Just because this game is different doesn’t mean we should accept regression. Gamma/ Fang FL4K doesn’t do anything Axton’s turret couldn’t, and nothing the pets do is special compared to any other pet. FL4K is a fine class, but a terrible pet class.

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I guess. Just seems you’re upset that you can’t have it the way you want, so you’re saying its broken.

Like I said earlier, its normal that you can’t use just any old build doing the hardest stuff. And, while Fl4k is a “Beast Master”, again you gotta understand that his Pet is NOT his primary skill or source of damage. Thats because unlike Gaige and her Death Trap, Fl4ks pet is not their action skill. I’ve played Fl4k since day 1 as well, and I NEVER saw my pet as my primary source of damage. They are there to assist. Fl4k is not the same as Gaige or as Timothy. They’re just not. It seems you’re upset about that, but if thats what you want, maybe Moze with her Auto Bear, or the new Mini Bear?

If you use primarily Red and Blue trees you can use Rakk and your Pet. thats two different beasts, and with the right COM (complete with good rolls) you can really have Pets all over the place wreaking havoc. If you want a Death trap, I think you picked the wrong class.

AFAIK the only way you’ll get a pet like a DT is to use Gamma /w Red F4ng which you already poo poo’d, so I don’t know what to tell you.

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Dare I ask what “any old build” would be in this case? Killer Queen is THE most pet damage focused build in the game, has a 56x multiplier for the pets and utilizes mechanics that I can’t even be sure are intended, and the pet damage is still fairly weak. That isn’t a build issue, that’s a balance issue.

On the action skill point, Gamma Burst is an action skill that exists to buff your pet. During Gamma Burst, your pet is your action skill.

Good for you that you didn’t see things that way, but that doesn’t mean pets weren’t meant to do damage. Even at launch FL4K had 200% pet damage. Another about 200% was added with Mayhem 4.

By getting shot? Because unless you have a taunt skill they don’t do much besides that. No other pet ability needed skills or augments to distract enemies. Their passive bonuses suck with BY, and most of them still do with BY. Aside from Gunslinger, all of the other pets suck at building and maintaining frenzy and need He Bites to stack it somewhat decently. If you have Not My Circus, pets will prioritize doing that long animation over reviving, and Jabbers will prioritize barrels over reviving you.

They aren’t really great assistants compared to what we’ve had before.

FL4K is the beastmaster of BL3, the dedicated pet class. Of the pets are bad, why should the solution be to play another class?

If you think that Red Fang Gamma is like DT, I don’t know what to tell you. Red Fang Gamma can’t even do this

Maybe by Beast Master they meant Fl4k can control and send out lots of different beasts to AID them? Maybe they didn’t intend for you to be able to sit back and let your pet do all of the work?

I just don’t have these problems you are referring to, so at this point it seems like they didn’t do it the way you wanted, so you’re unhappy. I get it. there are things I was unhappy with in BL2 and in this one as well, but I’m not going to say its broken just because Gearbox made different design choices than I would have.

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You literally can’t AFK play pet FL4K. You. Can. Not. Do. That. A third of your pet damage comes from Hunt skills, which can only be activated by FL4K. IPS, MDG, Furious Attack, and Psycho Head all require you to damage or kill enemies in order to give the pet damage. Do you want to see what AFK pet play looks like?

Please do us both a favor: read Ratore’s suggestion thread to familiarize yourself with pet issues. I’m not bitching because of design decisions, this stuff is actually broken. Pet damage deals a third of the damage it should because it doesn’t work with cryo, Frenzy doesn’t stack from Atomic Aroma so Gamma builds completely ruin Frenzy stacking for Jabbers, Jabbers weapons gain mayhem scaling so they massively outdamage other pets, etc…

You don’t notice these things because Red Fang Gamma doesn’t actually care about the pet, just that it taunts, and conveniently covers up some of the more egregious issues. That you don’t notice them doesn’t mean everything is fine. Everyone has their own play style and not everyone needs to care about pet damage. However, I don’t see why you are trying to argue about pet balance if you are seemingly unaware of the issues pet players have been raising since launch.

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Hey, its whatever. You be you Scotty P

I’d agree with you, if…

  • Fl4k didn’t have that many skills that are exclusive to boost pet damage alone (ferocity, Go For The Eyes, He Bites, Sic Em, Psycho Head).
  • And then you have pet damage in 8 more skills.
  • Plus Gamma burst, that the main purpose is to increase the damage of your pet (red fang is a class mod that augments Gamma Burst, it shouldn’t be a must to make Gamma playable. Gamma burst without Red Fang is a death wish) with 2 augments that further increase pet damage (Endurance and Atomic Aroma)
  • Plus class mods that encourage your pet to kill stuff or deal extra damage (Friend bot, Tr4iner)

With all of that, and full investment, of course I’d expect my pet to be more that just an aid, I’d expect a fierce companion that can kill as quickly and effectively as their master.

If the main idea of GB was to have someone that could aid us in battle, why do we have all of those tools to boost pet damage? Ask yourself that, and maybe you could understand our position. The skills and tools are there, the problem is that if you decide to go all in, it simply doesn’t work, like dominance cap stone.

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But considering your pet is ALWAYS on the battlefield (provided it doesn’t get dead, which is rarely an issue) don’t you think a pet just a powerful as you, would be highly unbalanced? That would be the equivalent of 2 players playing on 1 player difficulty

Now, as a Fl4k main, AND a user of Gamma /w Red F4ng, I do agree that if you use that build with points in all the right skills, that your pet should be very effective in things when GB is active. And, that this specific build could be considered a “Pet Build”

Also, I don’t think we are really disagreeing here, as if you read all my posts on this thread, you’ll see that I mention multiple times that there are lots of ways you can play this game with a pet focus. I think the skills you mention AID your Pet in AIDing you.

I guess the real question is, did Gearbox ever specifically say that Fl4k was designed and meant to be played as a pet class in the vein of Gaige or Timothy? Or, did they just call him the Beast master? Because you can play all kinds of builds with a beast on the field and tossing other beasts(rakk) out at the same time. So you have Fl4k dealing DMG, pet dealing DMG and Rakk flying around dealing DMG. All simultaneously. Thats sounds very beast mastery to me. Plus, you use the right COM, skills and weapons, and you are not only playing a beast focused build, but dealing tons of DMG AND keeping yourself alive.

I just don’t get the issue here.

We had something close to that while Scorcher was bugged. It really wasn’t an issue (at least the overall damage wasn’t. That it was the only attack that could do that and didn’t require pet damage investment were the real issues there).

Consider that a fully buffed Gamma pet can reach at most 2.3mil DPS. That is just barely enough to one hit a Maliwan commando at full buffs. For 25% of your skill points, action skill, and maybe even your class mod. Meanwhile, Zane can have his clone and SNTL active, and SNTL can hit for 3 or 4 mil DPS while also having Double Barrel clone for 10s of millions of damage on top of that. All for the cost of 3 skills (Donnybrook, Boom Enhance, and Double Barrel) and 1 augment (Boomsday).

Go for the Eyes and Sic Em currently do nothing to aid FL4K. Sure, once the new skill tree comes we’ll actually have skills that activate on pet crit or AC but those skills have never had a use for FL4K at all. They are also the only 2 multiplicative skills to pet damage. They are purely pet damage focused skills.

Should they need to? GB hasn’t clarified a lot of things in this game, but it’s not as if we’re reaching for the stars inferring the pets are meant to deal damage when Gamma Burst, attack commands, trainer, deadeye, Eager to Impress, Go for the Eyes + Sic Em, splash damage scaling, the terror pet anointment, M4 pet buffs, increased Mayhem scaling that is 66% higher than action skills, and TPI exist.

Besides, even comparing them to Wolf (which has mostly been my frame of reference for non-Gamma Builds) it’s not as if they get much better. They provide similar bonuses to Wolf and Saint but their horrible movement speed and pathing mean that their performance as damage dealers is terrible in comparison, and the synergy between them and FL4K amounts to “eat bullets and buff me” while laser guided at least felt more like a partnership between Wilhelm and Wolf.

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I can’t speak to the comparison to Zane or any other VH, as I don’t play the others much and also, we don’t know where the unbalance lies. Is it with Zane being OP, or Fl4k pets UP?

I use GB /w RF primarily, and sometimes use Friend Bot to change things up and my pet kills ■■■■ all the time. Also, after the buffs they gave to pets for Mayhem levels, I couldn’t tell you the last time my pet died, so they’re always out there fighting.

I wish I had a way to record my build and playstyle, but alas, i do not.

And, I do think it matters if Gearbox has said this, because their intention in implementation of pets for Fl4k means EVERYTHING in regards to what you’re talking about here. If they never intended for pets to be used this way or Fl4k to be played this way, then your argument is moot.

Either way, all I can say is I have played every BL from the original to this one all since day 1 release and have thousands of hours in the series. Having said that, when they announced all classed and trees and etc., never once did I think Fl4k was intended to be played ala Gaige or Timothy, ( I see that play style more in Moze) Nor like Wilhelm with Wolf and Saint (that would be Zane)

Maybe you picked the wrong character?

Then again, WTF do I know?

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What does it matter where the imbalance is? The direction the game has moved in has left pets underpowered, and it’s not as if GB is going to further nerf Mayhem. FL4K’s pets are the most “balanced” of all the summons in BL3 needing to meet between 5 and 8 conditions with various time limits to deal maximum damage.



3 weeks now with no answer.

Also, their intentions mean nothing because they break them all the time. Remember how mayhem 10 enemy damage wasn’t supposed to scale?

Yeah.

Then what is FL4K supposed to play like, Axton? Because no matter which class you compare FL4K to, as a pet class, they suck. If it’s Gaige and Timmy, the damage reeks. If it’s Wihlem, the utility is about the same but worse in some respects. If it’s Axton, the turrets were way better at drawing aggro , slag + battlefront provides way more damage than FL4K’s pets, and all the pet damage is just a damn lie and wasted stats.

If the beastmaster is supposed to play like something completely unique, then all that’s been accomplished is being uniquely bad. Everything aside from the pets is great, but tell me one way in which FL4K’s pets are better than anything besides Roland’s turret.

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Seems like you got it all figured out then. Good luck with your builds.

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All of this. I just switched to GB FL4K on M10 and no longer need to use only Amara for mobbing. I use the Urad build but not the Front Loader. It’s a lot of fun and exactly the play style I want - create distraction/work with pets, deal insane burst damage, - rinse, repeat. It’s more fun than Fade Away to me and always me to Fade for bosses if I need to which is the flexibility I want.

The recent updates to the pets are good and what I was hoping for. If things are not scaled right or there are glitches, things not working, etc. Ok. Fix those but all the effort theorizing what it should play like or whether they are ‘truly’ a beastmaster is a little silly to me. This is what they built. Maybe that’s the way they want it and many players, including me, are fine with it.

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Exactly.

I find on these forums, that unless you can wipe everything out on Mayhem 10 in 1 millisecond, than its not working and not viable. (obviously I’m being dramatic here, but thats kind of the attitude I see)

FYI, I am using the Plus Ultra Shield from the new DLC and love it to death. With the bullet absorb and cool down bonus, plus the hidden bonus of doubling your health, it’s the best Gamma Burst build shield IMO. I am recollecting all gear at lvl 65 now, and on mayhem 10 without the best gear, just using what I found, I was doing fine and not dying. Neither was my pet AND he got kills. Surprising considering pets “aren’t working”

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I’ll just add this to the conversation:
What you and some developers sometimes dont understand or maybe don’t even have the capacity to realize is that PLAYERS dont care what something is MEANT to do for some… a game needs to FEEL whole and every part of it in an ideal world MUST feel good to use…
YOU personally might not see a pet as YOUR primary source of damage… but it EXISTS, its part of a characters kit, and it DEALS DAMAGE, so when it exists and it is able to deal any amount of damage, there should be a GOOD AND CONVENIENT, REALIZABLE way to MAKE IT your primary source of damage. NO EXCUSES.
it doesn’t have to be the god tier, end all be all built… but when you have A WHOLE GOD DAMN blue tree that focuses on MAKING these things do something. and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY failing to achieve this in any kind of meaningful way, with developers even having had intentions to realize such a playstyle, then ofcourse people will be upset! I wanted to play fl4k as a BEASTmaster… I dont like shooting, I dont like beeing stealthy… I wanted for my pet to do the work for me… and with a WHOLE SKILLTREE, THREE classmods focusing around your pet, HOW can you have the audacity to tell someone else he doesn’t undersatnd something when you are just ignoring facts on how the game FAILS to achieve a playstyle for a person who WANTS that playstyle… who looks at the skills and possabilities OFFERED BY THE GAME and get excited for it, just to realize that NON of it works in game…

the tree is ■■■■, the classmods are ■■■■, pet basedamage is ■■■■, Pet movementspeed is ■■■■, pet AI is ■■■■.
There is ONE build in existence that just uses and abuse so many late game things to even make a REMOTLY playable GIMMICK build for some cool youtube video… the biuld is SO inconsitant and works SO poorly in so many situations… its not in any way shape or form a pet build.

look at it from a new player perspective, that always specs into the blue tree to have the pet do work… and then just realize how totally garbage it is… and the pet doing nothing at all! its a HUGE disapointment to many people, and a TRAGIC oversite to not make pets good… I want to make more use out of my pet then just choosing the buff it provides. I want an interactive playstyle focused around them, use corrosive queen in the maliwan takedown to help me put down the valkyires in a meaningful way, use a jabber to fight big and far away bosses like graveward and psychoreaver, use flame beetle for mobbing or have any meaningful reason to use my goodboi…

the whole blue tree needs a rework to give MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more damage! to ALL pet attacks (and not just a gimmick first melee attack that crits thats only used to trigger a stupid guardian rank skill…),MORE utility, movement and mechanis to fl4ks pets, they need way better response time and need a REAL classmod to make them work…

and if you insist to say “they are not meant to be”, then just leave this conversation because you add nothing of value to it…

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