[Dominance Rework] P4CK Alpha

Then why are you here? This doesn’t effect you at all, yet you seem to insist on continuing to chime in.

here we go again



Unfortunately I’ve never been able to find Bloodwing builds on YT, so if anyone has seen any please point me in their direction.

And just for your point about looter shooters in general


I’ll just stop there since Warframe is super melee heavy anyway.

Suffice to say, not only has this play style been available in every Borderlands to date, but it’s not even some hard and fast rule that looter-shooters can not allow any style of combat other than shooting to be effective.

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Like I said. You be you Scotty P

thats an awesome name! :smiley:

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Seems like your big issue is what the word “beastmaster” means, as a class. It’s fairly open to interpretation, but I’d argue that a “master” is someone who bosses others (their servants) around. So a beastmaster SHOULD be all about giving orders to their pet and having the pet do most of the work. Since when does a “master” get their own hands dirty, alongside their “servant”?
I think the best comparison is either to a canine agility trainer (look up agility training and watch how the dog responds to the trainer’s commands, going where they say, stopping instantly, waiting in one place, coming immediately, fetching targets/objects, etc.) which would require skills/augments in our trees that allow us to give better/different commands to the pet. Or, like a “master of the hounds” or fighting dog mobster (they look after the dog, get/keep it amped up, and as soon as they give the command the dog attacks instantly, not wondering around thinking about it) which would be similar to current pets but with faster reactions and more damage. And the dogs don’t just nibble their targets, they rip them apart.
Think about it - would you call someone a “master” if they turned up to an agility course and their pet ignored them, wondered around, took 5-10 seconds to obey commands, etc? Would you call someone a “master” if they released a dog and shouted “sic’em” only for the dog to wander away and not attack, forcing the mobster to pull out a gun and shoot them himself?

Sure, you can play Fl4k several different ways, but a LOT of people want to play him as a “boss-the-pet-around-and-let-it-do-the-work-under-your-direct-command” class. Not an AFK class, or a “pet-does-its-own-thing-while-they-kill-most-enemies” class.
And the way the skills are set up, it SHOULD be possible to play that way, BUT the pets aren’t good enough. Which sucks.

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I’m not sure where the issue (outside of any broken skills) lies at then. My pet kills stuff as I boss him around. I mean, they aren’t one shotting things on Mayhem 10, but I do play on M10 and my pet does noticeable dmg to the enemies with each attack and gets kills. If I let them do EVERYTHING and didn’t assist them AT ALL, then I guess it may take a little bit to clear out mobs of enemies or a boss. No speed running or anything.

Example from last night. I was farming Turn Key Tim. I use Gamma Burst and send my pet around using attack commands as needed. I am mostly invested in red tree and green, with enough in Blue to get Great Horned skag and Empathic Rage.

Other than the GB boost, my pets only dmg skills are Ferocity (4/5). Frenzy (5/5) and He Bites (4/3)
All my other skills are for dmg dealing with Fl4k. With just that minimal investment, my pet was hitting non badass enemies for what appeared to be around 10% of their health per hit, then add on the dmg reflect from He Bites and he was taking off decent chunks. Thats on M10 /w not even full investment in pet dmg. If I focused more on pet skills and items to help bolster those skills and style, I’d be doing a lot more, including the badass and super badasses.

Also, I don’t know if you guys know this, but you can swap Action Skills around on the fly. meaning you can use one as others are on cool down/not is use. So you can swap between GB and Rakk, having beasts all over the place doing dmg for you.

this tells me (again, outside of broken skills/mechanics) that if you put a good build together, your pets should be pretty damn helpful. Now, I’m not saying that there aren’t things that need fixing,but this ENTIRE conversation started because Boom wanted to argue that Fl4k can’t be played as a “Beast master”, and I think thats just flat out false.

Edit: Unless by Beast master, you mean your pet should be steamrolling everything on m10 in seconds. Which, in that case…I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t know if thats intended to be that way or not by Gearbox, but it seems that would be OP having a pet like that while also being able to deal tons of DMG as Fl4k simultaneously (considering how many skill points we have now). Sounds very unbalanced to me.

There is the issue here. Trash mobs mean nothing. They are the weakest enemies in the game and anything that deals damage that can’t kill trash mobs is really just pathetic and needs a buff.

If you take a look at killer queen, that build has over 300% pet damage, +7 into Go for the Eyes for x2 damage on the first melee hit, the Deadeye 35% bonus, over almost 300% splash damage, and 30% on AC from Sic Em. Sure, with Countess I can hit 35 mil, but do you know what just about every other pet hits for?

5 mil (not accounting for the shadow nerfed skags and ants who deal half of hat now). An attack with a 16 second cool down hits for 5 mil. Even in Athenas, that means an attack with a 16 second cool down can’t one shot any moderately healthy enemy. For comparison, Auto Bear can fire hammerdown protocol nukes for 13 mil damage on a 3 second cool down.

Yes, because opening the menu to swap out skills is such engaging gameplay.

I don’t see how swapping skills around on the fly is a good build. That seems more like a really harmless exploit.

The numbers speak for themselves man. Damage, clear speed, the number of players who even attempt to use these builds on a consistent basis, there is no indication anywhere in the game of beastmaster FL4K being a viable and effective play style on its own. Seriously, just take a pet damage build through Maliwan Takedown or SS on Mayhem 0, see how viable it is to have a pet chewing ankles while you get shot all the time. See for yourself, it becomes glaringly obvious to anyone who tried.

You do realize there is a whole world between face-rolling M10 and not being sadboi damage. Look at the values pets are dealing. It really wouldn’t be that big of deal if they were tripled.

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Right

10% of their health? Or 10% of health+armour+shield?
Honestly, 10% of one bar, and only on weak enemies? I have seen white weapons that do better than that. Not even anointed weapons, just plain ones.
Yeah, you’re saying you haven’t fully specced into a pet/beastmaster build, but still, do you really feel like that’s decent damage?
And it sounds like that was while it was buffed by GB. So, your action skill took out 10% of one bar on a weak enemy? Is that right?
And you’re here arguing that the pet feels good and useful and makes you feel like a “beastMASTER”?

I don’t want to accuse you of sounding like a troll, but you do seem to be arguing a point that doesn’t make sense. If that’s genuinely how you feel, then that’s fair enough and I support you playing your game how you enjoy, but from my POV that sounds bad. You freely admit that your pet does low damage and you do most of the work, even doubling up on action skills to boost them, but you’re saying the pet is “pretty damn helpful”, and I don’t agree that such a huge investment (in time, as well as skill points) for such low returns is “helpful”.

But, sure. U B U.

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Man, I’ve been watching these two go at it back and forth while eating my hypothetical popcorn for 2 days. As amusing as it was, it made no sense with how 10% of a health bar per hit on a common trash mob is considered “good” damage. You practically have to do most, if not all the work. Granted, you weren’t specced with most pet skills but it doesn’t get any better. The results are almost the same except that Fl4k will lose a good chunk of dps to gain not so much pet dps. You harm yourself more for playing Fl4k as a Beastmaster, which is ironic injustice.

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I’m glad to provide quality entertainment lol

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To be fair, I’m just guessing at the % as it was last night I was paying attention to it and this morning when I responded, but at M10 with no other buffs or skills, I thought that looked about right to me. Maybe a little more effective would have been nice, but then again, i didn’t fully spec into pet stuff either.

And really, at the end of the day, this conversation started due to the claim that Fl4k isn’t a Beast Master, and turned into “his pets don’t do enough damage”

Well, I have said multiple times, I understand that if something is broken, then it needs to be fixed, but Fl4k has multiple pet options, a Rakk AS, and various builds/COMS/playstyles where you can make pets really useful (IMO I guess). I have already agreed with Boom that you can’t steamroll stuff with just your pet in Mayhem. I’m well aware, but then again, I never expected to be able to. Boom and others apparently do. So, it’s whatevs, you know.

The way Boom explained it, was he wanted Fl4ks pets to be like Death Trap or the Dopplegangers. I never once got the impression from anything Gearbox has said or promoted, or how this game functions that this was something Fl4ks pet could/would do. Auto Bear and that new Mini Bear seem to fit that bill way more. And you can call the class whatever you want. Beast Master, Gunner, Ass Master, freaking whatever…if thats the playstyle you want, then…choose that character and stop whining. Thats just how I see it.

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I never said I double up on AS, just that its an option. I stick strictly to GB /w Red F4ng. I use my pet as a distraction while I sit on the fringes or weave in and out of the battle field hitting hard and fast.

And the point of that was to illustrate that Fl4k has a permanent pet, which can be buffed by GB ANNNND, he has Rakks as well. So thats two different beasts/pets right there that he has control of and can utilize together. I don’t know about ya’ll, but that sounds VERY Beast master to me.

Maybe the best thing to do at the outset, was have Boom clearly define Beast Master. Honestly the goal post just kept getting moved. At least that’s how I felt, hence…You be you Scotty P (bonus points to those who got that reference)

When I think beast master, I think of one who can control and utilize multiple beasts for their own purposes, and you can totally do that with Fl4k. Thats my argument/stance on the “Beast master” topic. Whether or not certain skills are broken or effective, or if the pets should do more on Mayhem is a totally different thing IMO, but the conversation somehow devolved into that.

Devolved?

It’s literally been the discussion since launch. If a class actively punishes you for playing to it’s intended (and don’t tell me all that pet damage in the tree and they aren’t supposed to do damage) play style, then how can you call that a beastmaster? I’ll just quote Hovi since they summed it up far more succinctly that I have thus far

Not really since it’s not like they can be used at the same time.

Every time you say that I’ll just keep putting up more suggested reading. Maybe familiarize yourself with the issues a bit more before labelling months of concentrated feedback as “whining”.




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You know, there’s a movie called Beast Master. Came out in the 80s. You may not know it. You sound young. Kinda like my 10 and 13 year old, hence the whining comments.

In either case, he was as the title of the movie described, a master of beasts. He could talk to them, get them to do things and help him out and so on. And, this might come as a shock to you, but he actually did a lot of fighting himself, despite being a master of beasts. Because, being a Beast Master doesn’t infer having beasts do ALL of your bidding, it just infers you can control them.

So pardon me if much of your counter arguments come across as nonsensical.

I’m gonna go back to enjoying BL3 now. You guys can finish this up yourselves. I’m just done with this silliness.

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You’re the one that keeps coming back. You’re free to stop whenever you want.

Definitely wasn’t expecting an argument that spanned several days to end with one party pretending they’re above everyone else in the thread… after singlehandedly carrying his half of the argument for multiple days.

I’m just a random onlooker of this discussion but wow, kind of sad to see such transparent pettiness. If you find yourself seething at a videogame forum just put down the keyboard next time please.

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So I agree. Fl4k is promoted as a Beastmaster, but his Gamma Burst feels lacking when compared to the other classes mobbing builds.
Now understand that Gamma Burst (imo) is a decent mobbing build, but it cannot stand a candle to Moze or Amara and their mobbing potential.
His burst boss damage is (and has been) one of the highest since launch. All that is fine but as I’ve seen said on this post, that’s not using pets.
Also the capstone for the blue tree isn’t very rewarding and the scaling for pet damage seems odd and disconnected.
Examples:

  1. Psycho Head on a Stick. Good on paper but the skill was heavily bugged for a long time and still doesn’t give any indication when it procs
  2. his DMG reduction/sharing skills just seem flat and empty and don’t have any impact on play from what I’ve experienced
  3. Atomic Aura has a big scalling problem being that it only scales of Pet Damage, doesn’t proc frenzy, doesn’t trigger the healing from the T2 Blue skill on the left of he bites (forgot the name cuz im not on my console)
  4. Pets don’t have a bunch of things to boost their base damage and the few things that do don’t always fit into a GB build. There just not enough space for the gear.
  5. Red Fang is the only way to have Gamma Burst be a working build. This is a whole other rant that Zane Mains should understand more.
  6. The blue skill that makes the first melee crit is honestly wonky and could use a fix.

There are more but those the biggest issues I see for Gamma Burst each time I play. So here are my suggestions and I’m by no means a game designer yet.

  1. Remove Psycho Head on a stick completely. And make it so when you target an enemy with an AC they are debuffed. If killed they spread a portion of that debuff to nearby enemies for the remainder of the duration.
    I never see PHoaS actually increase the speed but I do see the damage spike from time to time.
  2. Remove the Damage Reduction/Sharing skill in T3 only and make it health regen. Fl4k needs more Hp Regen. He has the weakest self sustained of any of the 4 classes.
  3. Atomic Aura should scale with not just pet damage, but also AS Damage, Elemental Damage, and AoE damage.
  4. Allow pets to take advantage of Cryo Bonuses, Groundbreaker GR skill, melee damage.
    Easy way is to make Skags scale of Melee damage bonus, gun pets to actually be affected by BY and fix their monkey brain (honestly never really use jobbers so I don’t know their real scalings just the other, and Spiderants have a stronger elemental scaling.
    Did I say make them be affected by cryo and melee bonuses across the board cuz we need that. No question.
  5. Take out Red Fang from the game as a class mod. Just make it into a GB augment, or make it the new Capstone of blue tree. The biggest slap to the face is that you cannot effectively use GB without RF and thats a major issue. And the skills aren’t the best. Yeah the skills to increase base pet dmg on there is nice but thats really the only good one. Although if I found one with 5 points into BY I won’t complain.
  6. I think pets should be able to crit more often than the first time they melee an enemy. I’m not sure how to fix that issue in all honesty
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well we definitly need SOME changes… numbers need to be reworked and the skill tree definitly needs value and cool stuff added to it.
like the red tree got pet damage, the blue tree now needs added flavor and QoL added too, more movement speed or bursts of speed, faster reaction time, maybe better attacks, and be stronger overall. and make the beast playstyle more beast focused. like clone zane is, like drone zane is, like daka iron bear is and probably iron cub will be.
For the pets to be able to carry you thorugh the game in most scenarios.

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I never got why the Devs even made something like Dominance a skill, let alone a skill cap. I mean the idea of it seems more akin to a Slavemaster not a Beastmaster.

If they’re not going to replace with something more fitting then here is something easy, keeping the Whip too!.

Unle4sh the Be4st (Krieg’s is called Release the Beast, whose numbers I’ve mostly copied :stuck_out_tongue: )
FL4K can now ‘Whip’ his Pet into a berserk frenzy state (growing bigger too), gaining 100% damage, 50% damage reduction and 33% Cooldown Reduction on Attack Commands while in this state.

Duration: 20 Seconds
Cooldown: 30 Seconds

(Seriously just want a 4Pex Pred4tor/Badass Evolution to replace that stupid Whip because nearly every other Beast has a Badass Variant, with Elemental Variations to boot!)

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