[Dominance Rework] P4CK Alpha

You literally can’t AFK play pet FL4K. You. Can. Not. Do. That. A third of your pet damage comes from Hunt skills, which can only be activated by FL4K. IPS, MDG, Furious Attack, and Psycho Head all require you to damage or kill enemies in order to give the pet damage. Do you want to see what AFK pet play looks like?

Please do us both a favor: read Ratore’s suggestion thread to familiarize yourself with pet issues. I’m not bitching because of design decisions, this stuff is actually broken. Pet damage deals a third of the damage it should because it doesn’t work with cryo, Frenzy doesn’t stack from Atomic Aroma so Gamma builds completely ruin Frenzy stacking for Jabbers, Jabbers weapons gain mayhem scaling so they massively outdamage other pets, etc…

You don’t notice these things because Red Fang Gamma doesn’t actually care about the pet, just that it taunts, and conveniently covers up some of the more egregious issues. That you don’t notice them doesn’t mean everything is fine. Everyone has their own play style and not everyone needs to care about pet damage. However, I don’t see why you are trying to argue about pet balance if you are seemingly unaware of the issues pet players have been raising since launch.

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Hey, its whatever. You be you Scotty P

I’d agree with you, if…

  • Fl4k didn’t have that many skills that are exclusive to boost pet damage alone (ferocity, Go For The Eyes, He Bites, Sic Em, Psycho Head).
  • And then you have pet damage in 8 more skills.
  • Plus Gamma burst, that the main purpose is to increase the damage of your pet (red fang is a class mod that augments Gamma Burst, it shouldn’t be a must to make Gamma playable. Gamma burst without Red Fang is a death wish) with 2 augments that further increase pet damage (Endurance and Atomic Aroma)
  • Plus class mods that encourage your pet to kill stuff or deal extra damage (Friend bot, Tr4iner)

With all of that, and full investment, of course I’d expect my pet to be more that just an aid, I’d expect a fierce companion that can kill as quickly and effectively as their master.

If the main idea of GB was to have someone that could aid us in battle, why do we have all of those tools to boost pet damage? Ask yourself that, and maybe you could understand our position. The skills and tools are there, the problem is that if you decide to go all in, it simply doesn’t work, like dominance cap stone.

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But considering your pet is ALWAYS on the battlefield (provided it doesn’t get dead, which is rarely an issue) don’t you think a pet just a powerful as you, would be highly unbalanced? That would be the equivalent of 2 players playing on 1 player difficulty

Now, as a Fl4k main, AND a user of Gamma /w Red F4ng, I do agree that if you use that build with points in all the right skills, that your pet should be very effective in things when GB is active. And, that this specific build could be considered a “Pet Build”

Also, I don’t think we are really disagreeing here, as if you read all my posts on this thread, you’ll see that I mention multiple times that there are lots of ways you can play this game with a pet focus. I think the skills you mention AID your Pet in AIDing you.

I guess the real question is, did Gearbox ever specifically say that Fl4k was designed and meant to be played as a pet class in the vein of Gaige or Timothy? Or, did they just call him the Beast master? Because you can play all kinds of builds with a beast on the field and tossing other beasts(rakk) out at the same time. So you have Fl4k dealing DMG, pet dealing DMG and Rakk flying around dealing DMG. All simultaneously. Thats sounds very beast mastery to me. Plus, you use the right COM, skills and weapons, and you are not only playing a beast focused build, but dealing tons of DMG AND keeping yourself alive.

I just don’t get the issue here.

We had something close to that while Scorcher was bugged. It really wasn’t an issue (at least the overall damage wasn’t. That it was the only attack that could do that and didn’t require pet damage investment were the real issues there).

Consider that a fully buffed Gamma pet can reach at most 2.3mil DPS. That is just barely enough to one hit a Maliwan commando at full buffs. For 25% of your skill points, action skill, and maybe even your class mod. Meanwhile, Zane can have his clone and SNTL active, and SNTL can hit for 3 or 4 mil DPS while also having Double Barrel clone for 10s of millions of damage on top of that. All for the cost of 3 skills (Donnybrook, Boom Enhance, and Double Barrel) and 1 augment (Boomsday).

Go for the Eyes and Sic Em currently do nothing to aid FL4K. Sure, once the new skill tree comes we’ll actually have skills that activate on pet crit or AC but those skills have never had a use for FL4K at all. They are also the only 2 multiplicative skills to pet damage. They are purely pet damage focused skills.

Should they need to? GB hasn’t clarified a lot of things in this game, but it’s not as if we’re reaching for the stars inferring the pets are meant to deal damage when Gamma Burst, attack commands, trainer, deadeye, Eager to Impress, Go for the Eyes + Sic Em, splash damage scaling, the terror pet anointment, M4 pet buffs, increased Mayhem scaling that is 66% higher than action skills, and TPI exist.

Besides, even comparing them to Wolf (which has mostly been my frame of reference for non-Gamma Builds) it’s not as if they get much better. They provide similar bonuses to Wolf and Saint but their horrible movement speed and pathing mean that their performance as damage dealers is terrible in comparison, and the synergy between them and FL4K amounts to “eat bullets and buff me” while laser guided at least felt more like a partnership between Wilhelm and Wolf.

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I can’t speak to the comparison to Zane or any other VH, as I don’t play the others much and also, we don’t know where the unbalance lies. Is it with Zane being OP, or Fl4k pets UP?

I use GB /w RF primarily, and sometimes use Friend Bot to change things up and my pet kills ■■■■ all the time. Also, after the buffs they gave to pets for Mayhem levels, I couldn’t tell you the last time my pet died, so they’re always out there fighting.

I wish I had a way to record my build and playstyle, but alas, i do not.

And, I do think it matters if Gearbox has said this, because their intention in implementation of pets for Fl4k means EVERYTHING in regards to what you’re talking about here. If they never intended for pets to be used this way or Fl4k to be played this way, then your argument is moot.

Either way, all I can say is I have played every BL from the original to this one all since day 1 release and have thousands of hours in the series. Having said that, when they announced all classed and trees and etc., never once did I think Fl4k was intended to be played ala Gaige or Timothy, ( I see that play style more in Moze) Nor like Wilhelm with Wolf and Saint (that would be Zane)

Maybe you picked the wrong character?

Then again, WTF do I know?

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What does it matter where the imbalance is? The direction the game has moved in has left pets underpowered, and it’s not as if GB is going to further nerf Mayhem. FL4K’s pets are the most “balanced” of all the summons in BL3 needing to meet between 5 and 8 conditions with various time limits to deal maximum damage.



3 weeks now with no answer.

Also, their intentions mean nothing because they break them all the time. Remember how mayhem 10 enemy damage wasn’t supposed to scale?

Yeah.

Then what is FL4K supposed to play like, Axton? Because no matter which class you compare FL4K to, as a pet class, they suck. If it’s Gaige and Timmy, the damage reeks. If it’s Wihlem, the utility is about the same but worse in some respects. If it’s Axton, the turrets were way better at drawing aggro , slag + battlefront provides way more damage than FL4K’s pets, and all the pet damage is just a damn lie and wasted stats.

If the beastmaster is supposed to play like something completely unique, then all that’s been accomplished is being uniquely bad. Everything aside from the pets is great, but tell me one way in which FL4K’s pets are better than anything besides Roland’s turret.

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Seems like you got it all figured out then. Good luck with your builds.

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All of this. I just switched to GB FL4K on M10 and no longer need to use only Amara for mobbing. I use the Urad build but not the Front Loader. It’s a lot of fun and exactly the play style I want - create distraction/work with pets, deal insane burst damage, - rinse, repeat. It’s more fun than Fade Away to me and always me to Fade for bosses if I need to which is the flexibility I want.

The recent updates to the pets are good and what I was hoping for. If things are not scaled right or there are glitches, things not working, etc. Ok. Fix those but all the effort theorizing what it should play like or whether they are ‘truly’ a beastmaster is a little silly to me. This is what they built. Maybe that’s the way they want it and many players, including me, are fine with it.

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Exactly.

I find on these forums, that unless you can wipe everything out on Mayhem 10 in 1 millisecond, than its not working and not viable. (obviously I’m being dramatic here, but thats kind of the attitude I see)

FYI, I am using the Plus Ultra Shield from the new DLC and love it to death. With the bullet absorb and cool down bonus, plus the hidden bonus of doubling your health, it’s the best Gamma Burst build shield IMO. I am recollecting all gear at lvl 65 now, and on mayhem 10 without the best gear, just using what I found, I was doing fine and not dying. Neither was my pet AND he got kills. Surprising considering pets “aren’t working”

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I’ll just add this to the conversation:
What you and some developers sometimes dont understand or maybe don’t even have the capacity to realize is that PLAYERS dont care what something is MEANT to do for some… a game needs to FEEL whole and every part of it in an ideal world MUST feel good to use…
YOU personally might not see a pet as YOUR primary source of damage… but it EXISTS, its part of a characters kit, and it DEALS DAMAGE, so when it exists and it is able to deal any amount of damage, there should be a GOOD AND CONVENIENT, REALIZABLE way to MAKE IT your primary source of damage. NO EXCUSES.
it doesn’t have to be the god tier, end all be all built… but when you have A WHOLE GOD DAMN blue tree that focuses on MAKING these things do something. and COMPLETELY and UTTERLY failing to achieve this in any kind of meaningful way, with developers even having had intentions to realize such a playstyle, then ofcourse people will be upset! I wanted to play fl4k as a BEASTmaster… I dont like shooting, I dont like beeing stealthy… I wanted for my pet to do the work for me… and with a WHOLE SKILLTREE, THREE classmods focusing around your pet, HOW can you have the audacity to tell someone else he doesn’t undersatnd something when you are just ignoring facts on how the game FAILS to achieve a playstyle for a person who WANTS that playstyle… who looks at the skills and possabilities OFFERED BY THE GAME and get excited for it, just to realize that NON of it works in game…

the tree is ■■■■, the classmods are ■■■■, pet basedamage is ■■■■, Pet movementspeed is ■■■■, pet AI is ■■■■.
There is ONE build in existence that just uses and abuse so many late game things to even make a REMOTLY playable GIMMICK build for some cool youtube video… the biuld is SO inconsitant and works SO poorly in so many situations… its not in any way shape or form a pet build.

look at it from a new player perspective, that always specs into the blue tree to have the pet do work… and then just realize how totally garbage it is… and the pet doing nothing at all! its a HUGE disapointment to many people, and a TRAGIC oversite to not make pets good… I want to make more use out of my pet then just choosing the buff it provides. I want an interactive playstyle focused around them, use corrosive queen in the maliwan takedown to help me put down the valkyires in a meaningful way, use a jabber to fight big and far away bosses like graveward and psychoreaver, use flame beetle for mobbing or have any meaningful reason to use my goodboi…

the whole blue tree needs a rework to give MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more damage! to ALL pet attacks (and not just a gimmick first melee attack that crits thats only used to trigger a stupid guardian rank skill…),MORE utility, movement and mechanis to fl4ks pets, they need way better response time and need a REAL classmod to make them work…

and if you insist to say “they are not meant to be”, then just leave this conversation because you add nothing of value to it…

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Seems to me you have added nothing of value yourself, as you have brought nothing new to the conversation, but I will entertain you for a second.

If I invest heavily in Red (hunt skills) and Blue (for pet skills) and some green (again for more pet stuff) I can totally sit back and let my pet do all the work while I chill far away. This might not be great for boss fights, but then again, lots of great builds are better for either bossing or mobbing. Not always both.

and AGAIN, regardless if you like this answer or not, it seems obvious to me that your pet isn’t made to be your primary source of damage in this game. If your pet could do the damage Fl4k could, it would be OP as hell considering it is out on the field ALL THE TIME.

And AGAIN AGAIN, regardless if you like the answer or not, it doesn’t look like they designed the character this way. So maybe Fl4k just isn’t for you? Try Moze. Even though she isn’t the “Pet” class her Auto Bear and that new Mini Bear look to fit the bill you and Boom keep whining about, much more than Fl4k does.

I mean honestly, it’s like you guys are upset that the game wan’t made the way YOU wanted it to be, so you are throwing a fit. its kind of ridiculous. But, then again…I guess it’s whatever. This has kinda been a stupid waste of my time, so I’m done with this.

You be you Scotty P!!

200% pet damage at launch and an action skill buffing it’s damage by 75%. 200% worth of damage increases added later. A class mod that only activates on pet kills. A 20 second cool down attack with no F4K bonuses attached to it that can only be spammed by the pet killing enemies.

I don’t see how any of this exists if the pet isn’t meant to be a damage dealer.

Anything can kill trash mobs on Athenas. The way pet damage is designed makes what you described extremely suboptimal. Being able to play sub optimally and kill weak trash mobs doesn’t say anything about the balance of an ability.

The closest we ever got to that was bugged Scorcher, and in comparison to every other char it was pretty tame.

Her IB was weak for a long time and had a lot of the same scaling issues as pets. It took the continued criticism of the Moze community for months to get IB into a great spot right before Mayhem 2.0. The only way things get addressed is through consistent and firm criticism, which we’ve offered close to 50 pages of in this forum to date.

Not for nothing, but every point you’ve raised has been argued to death and back a dozen or so times, and never has anyone been able to answer why there is 400% worth of pet damage (more than any other pet in the franchise), attack commands, and Gamma Burst if pets aren’t meant to deal damage. The way you feel your time has been wasted participating in this discussion is how many of us feel having it for the millionth time with no answer to the above question.

I’m glad you’re happy with how the pets are. Really. I’m glad you enjoy the game. But if you come into a thread about the balance of FL4K as a Beastmaster and tell us that everything is fine while also being unaware of pretty much every bug and balance issue that we’ve been pressing to have addressed, you should be prepared to be challenged on your assumptions.

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You brought up a point I forgot to address, so I will respond to that.

Bugs: If there is a bug or glitch or something wrong and not working as intended…that needs to be fixed. Obviously

Thats a whole different issue from “Fl4k isn’t really a Beast Master”
It’s a “These skills are broken” issue

FL4K has several melee builds (spacejam, rakkstab, punchbot) that wreck GTD. Without Peregrine, you can still do MTD with a Hunter Seeker build. FL4K (every VH really) can AFK clear content with a Faulty Star. Heck, even Spacerobots melee FL4K can perform better in a lot of areas than pets. Meanwhile I couldn’t pay Ratore, Darrell, LazyData, or any FL4K player enough to even attempt to take pets into that same content with a damage build.

So yeah, FL4K isn’t a beastmaster. If they are, they’re a pretty ■■■■■■ one.

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The skill rework sounds awesome! If I could change the name I would call it “St4mpede”, though.

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What map is this and how long does it take?

I probably worded that poorly. Most of the work is what I should have said. Assistance with 'nades and maybe sniping bad ass enemies here and there. But, this would be on TVHM Non Mayhem.

I’m aware that Mayhem is the end game that a lot of people play, and that its not viable in these modes, but I’d argue that the majority of players who play BL3 do not spend their time in Mayhem. That would be the hard core fans/players. So this would be viable for the normal/casual player.

It does confuse me why ANYONE would want to play this way, though. Like…you want play a FPS Loot Shooter and NOT shoot anything??? And you expect an FPS Loot Shooter to even have this play style in mind and ready for you?

HAHAHA, like WAT???

I would agree if day one of the conception of Borderlands didn’t have melee character(s).
Hell, even with “pets”.

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Then why are you here? This doesn’t effect you at all, yet you seem to insist on continuing to chime in.

here we go again



Unfortunately I’ve never been able to find Bloodwing builds on YT, so if anyone has seen any please point me in their direction.

And just for your point about looter shooters in general


I’ll just stop there since Warframe is super melee heavy anyway.

Suffice to say, not only has this play style been available in every Borderlands to date, but it’s not even some hard and fast rule that looter-shooters can not allow any style of combat other than shooting to be effective.

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