Dragon's bulk proposition of balancing the whole game

Hi there.

As many of you probably noticed I’m rather pro hw1 than hw2. After many battles, tests and thinking about a possible solution to all our balancing issues (and of course analyzing all that has been written here on GB forum) I would like to post “my version” of changes that should be made in order to make the MP as it should be.

CHANGES TO PARTICULAR HW1&2 SHIPS

Fighters & Corvettes

Firstly bring back formations how they worked in hw1. When it comes to hw2 this could be tricky but. Make a possibility to use all the formations with squadrons (like wall of squadron of corvettes). This would be very interesting when it comes to strats like “fireball”. Hw2 races would not have to make squads again after using it in comparison to hw1. Also give possibility to disband squadrons for hw2 so that they could use their own at their discretion so that it would be comparable to hw1. While using normal hw2 squadrones hw2 should be at little disadvantage. Also when needed hw2 races should be able to form their squadrons again.

Repair the behaviour of fighters and corvettes. When it comes to corvettes make them kill fighters as fast as it was possible in hw1. For both races. All behaviour the same. Here the only tricky thing would be getting vaygr to have a corvette for anti fighter so in this case we could boost it a little vs fighters.

Bring back the minelaying mechanizm that was implemented in hw1. This would be a variable option for guys wishing to defend.

Frigates

Repair the behaviour of assault frigates and their use.
Make ships like defense field frigate a passive ability to block projectiles
Implemend no leaching system for support frigates (I will later write about hw2 counterparts) and greatly increase its speed.
Make drone frigate have its drones pernamently outside of his bay so it can attack at all the times.

Capital ships

This would be tricky. Destroyers should not be slower than frigates. Make them slower than assualt’s and faster than ions. There is a reason behind it. Assaults are to counter small ships so they need their speed while ions have to big guns for their engines to give them enough speed. Of course this could be at great cost of manoeuvrability. Disable to ability for hw2 bcs to have modules and bay.

Research

Remove HP upgrades (cause of them bcs are too dangerous)
Remove speed upgrades
Make it necessary to research additional technologies for battlecruiser like in hw1 (additional ion beam research and superheavy chasis for hiig, for vaygr lenghten the time of research).
Make it necessary for hw1 races to research ion technology before going for destroyers.

Production

Now this will be interesting. Here it goes:

Make production of as many units as possible (like in hw1).
Start the game ALWAYS with only ms of carrier (don’t have them both at ms type of games).
Enable the production of resource collectors for hw1 races from carrier (hyperspace it).
It would be difficult but make hw2 races modules not recognizable. For example. We now know exactly where every module is located desired for its purpose. Make it change so If I would build a fighter facility on a hiigarian SY make it locate at a random facility space (even the capital). In this way no one will know what hw2 races are going for and would create more intriguing gaming. Now after probing someone we know exactly what he is going to do. That is the main complaint of hw2 races. Make it even so we wouldn’t blindly go with counter, but after the attack has been deployed.

Cloaking

Make the cloaking system like in hw1. What is the use of a short timed cloaking device which mostly doesn’t do a thing. Vessels should be able to fire while cloaked and reveal themselves only for the time of aggression.

Support frigate equivalents for hw2 races

As we know resource collectors for hw2 races can repair units. Make those repairs happen in the system of hw1. With 1 exception. So that the system will not be abused make resource collectors have 2 modes: harvesting and repairing. Make the time lapse to change 1 minute/2 minutes so that hw2 races won’t be able to abuse this system.

In my opinion it would be fair since then hw2 races will have more space for combat frigates. Something for something.

Now some numbers!!!

I managed to get numbers for hw1 races from HWR and compared them to the original. Here are my thoughts:

With new fighter behaviour reduce bombers firepower by 60%.

If we blindly fix corvettes behaviour without shortening their firepower they will become OP with the healing system fixed. Their firepower should be cut by 30% for light, 50% for heavy and get mutligun corvette lower firepower than heavy (by 65%), but better accuracy. In other case it will replace heavy corvette which we would not like to see.

By doing this we should boost all corvette’s HP. Light - 50%, Heavy 200%, Mutli 200%. Reparing them with so low hp wouldn’t be possible if we encounter a torp frig, which would kill each corvette with 1 torpedo.

List of all number changes

Lower firepower for the following ships:

Bombers - by 60%
Light corvette - by 30%
Heavy corvette - by 50%
Mutligun corvette - by 65%
Assault frigate - by 55%
Ion - by 45%
Destroyer - by 45%
Missile destroyer - by 35%
Heavy Cruiser - by 75%

Lower hp for the following ships:

Support frigate - by 40%
Destroyer - by 50%
Missile destroyer - by 55%
Heavy cruiser - by 55%

Boost hp for the following ships:

Light corvette - by 50%
Heavy corvette - by 200%
Multigun corvette - by 150%

Boost speed for the following ships:

Support frigate - by 30%
Destroyer - by 20%
Missile destroyer - by 25%
Heavy cruiser - by 20%

Possible outcome that would give hw2 races a good advantage is that with the hp boost of corvettes they could save those squadrons of them by docking and repairing and this ability I would only reserve for hw2 races. The game would be more about asymetry then, but still pretty balance. Of course those type of changes I would implement on hw2 races equivalently with a +/- 5-10% so that the game would be balanced enough. Of course I could oversee many issues and I’m pretty tired after writing this post so please give me constructive criticism without any slaughter :wink:

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anyone :frowning: ?

Personally, I hate threads like this. It’s too chaotic to talk about this many things in a single thread. Especially with the number of other threads open for most if not all of the above issues and ideas.

Shamelessly promoting my own work. If you want to start individual threads for separate items above I’ll add them to the index and participate in each. You could also look for threads already started about various topics and contribute to them. Again, I indexed them for you.

You put a lot of work into the post above, it’s impressive. Put it into bite sized chucks and I’ll feast with you.

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I understand your point of view completely with one exception. We are currently trying to fix all the issues with balancing the ideas of the whole game, but focusing on the issue itself rather than a big picture, which in this case would the the whole game.

For instance. Salvagers + grav well rush is too op. Let’s nerf them both by decreasing HP, increasing the time to research, cost etc. And with this issue alone it’d be fine (imo the grav well can be researched too fast, but then again there are no hyperspace inhibitors in hw1 races - maybe just deny those races this possibility and return to the original hw1 model where you could “freeze” your opponent’s ships while hyperspacing).

This alone process would be just fine, but. If for example the frigate/capital ships accuracy was to be fixed, like additionally assault frig’s behaviour, then it would make salv vetts obsolete due to the fact that it would additionally impact their performance.

I’m not criticizing anyone here. I am just afraid that we can forget about the big picture with fixing all the issues, which are unfortunately in large quantity. I, like everyone here, would love to see our perfect homeworld. Many of us put a lot of effort in making so and it would be regretful if it all were wasted.

This is why I created such a thread. I found this forum lacking one of those. Maybe it could inspire someone with some additional ideas. Who knows.

Yep. I fear and know we will miss something with narrow discussions as well. Could just be how my mind works and just my personal preference with problem solving. I’m in no way suggesting that we should discuss gravwells in a vacuum. Certainly I would expect the gravwell discussion to branch into frigate accuracy.

I was just a little heart broken that your post, so we’ll written, with great suggestions and great analysis would turn into chaos if it became its own mega thread. It to me is not a question of good or bad with individual points, but of discussable format. I am of the guru order. Not the guru chaos :wink:

Your speed numbers are wrong, in HW1 those were actually feet per second and not m/s like in HW2,
HW1 were slower than their HW2 counterparts, so you will find that in HWRC they were improved greatly to the point that it broke the SP campaign.

Check again :slight_smile: it’s in meters per second in hw1 :slight_smile:

Edit

I still have the classic copy of both

It is labled as meters, but if you compare the models used in both games then the scales are consistent only if you assume HW1’s are mislabled feet. Gearbox used roughly this scaling factor when remodeling HW1 ships, too.

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So you are saying the original creators of Home World mislabeled the measurements in meters when it should have been feet?

Considering they were in Canada I think it more likely the original devs had it right and you are misinterpreting where the issue comes from.

Units and coordinate systems can be a tricky mess when moving assets between different tools, formats, and engines. All I know for certain is what I’ve already said, the two games use wildly different scales UNLESS you assume the conversion from feet to meters, in which case they line up perfectly. This includes the prison ship model that was included in both games. And gearbox used effectively the same conversion factor in their HW1 remodels, while in communication with the original developers and artists.

If you can see a clear flaw in that reasoning, feel free to point it out. It’s much more plausible to me than suggesting that ships shrunk by a factor of three across the board between games. ED: While at the same time getting about three times slower! You’d think that level of miniaturization would lead to lighter, faster ships, eh?

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To be honest, I only used hw1 speed units to have a general knowledge of speed unit proportions between ship classes and single ships, and after doing some math I managed to change the hwrm units proportionally to what it was in hw1, so whenever they were in meters or feet or they were wrongly implemented, is irrelevant.:slight_smile: