Elemental Amara Build - Do Harm Stacking and Ties That Bind - TVHM M4

Alright man, appreciated even if you have already sold them, haha :slight_smile:
Let me know! I’ll keep farming, but they nerfed Mayhem drops a lot just now. I farmed the loot tink for hours on end dropping like 5 legendaries a pop and still didn’t get it. That’s no longer farmeable now sadly.

Hey-I added you on EGS, display name is shinen. Been farming Chups hard w/ a friend of mine and saved a spare if you’re still missing the zerker mod.

Awesome man, I accepted your invite! :slight_smile:

Hey man @Twixled, a thought came to mind. Not sure if I should DM or open this up to public (crowdsource ftw), but regarding 1)how does CDR work…check it:

If there truly is a CDR cap we’re not aware of, that means you don’t need to run Avatar. If you don’t take the capstone Avatar, you’ll still have 15 stacks of Rush with Phasezerker, or 150% supposed CDR.

Can you test that? 18/(1+1.5) = 7.2s, which is still well below the potential CDR cap. If the cooldown is STILL ~9-10s…then WOW we just freed up SO many skill points in the Mystical Assault tree.

We’re talkin Adding Melee.

11 Extra points here: can spec towards Laid Bare + Remnant (damage) or Sustainment/Indiscriminate (Melee can LIfesteal with Illuminated Fist + Sustainment).

OR. Lean into melee more, while maintaning capped CDR: Best of both Melee and Mystical Amara Builds.

You get your bare minimum in Mystical Assault (all you REALLY need is Do Harm 5/5 and maybe 2/5 Tapestry for 100% status chance) and nab Blitz, Guardian Angel for some serious melee damage, status damage, and spread from Fist of the Elements tree.

Now you can run Face Puncher gun, Unleash the Dragon relic (insane, maybe bugged damage, you can melee for 36k and the damage will tick for 56k/s, spreads with Wildfire), Brawler shield or Black Hole Shield (singularity yourself over and over with Mindfulness), Quasar. Maybe think about Catharsis (which does self damage) + Transformer, allowing you to get big shield boosts on enemy death shock novas, though it might not outheal the ignite proc on yourself.

This is all contingent on what the cooldown is for a 15 rush stack Phasezerker mod for Ties that Bind. I’m not in front of my BL3 computer now–somebody please confirm that it’s still ~9-10s cooldown? If it’s a little off, then Restless will be a stronger option to reach the hypothetical cap. If this is confirmed, Holy ****

TL;DR for the lurkers:
This can be a 150% CDR melee build, abusing both amara’s melee prowess + Ties that Bind interaction.

Sooo when I was first testing Restless vs non-Restless, it made a big difference because I realized I didn’t spec into Avatar. I think I got something like an extra 3 or 4 seconds? I can try it again.

10 less stacks also makes it take longer to really stack up your DH stacks.

I’ll certainly look into it! I was thinking about ways to make this work with melee

Hey there,

I just did some testing regarding CDR. I currently have ~10 CDR from guardian ranks and as far as I know, it is currently not possible to deactivate this, so I was only able to test with this as a basis. These are the results for the cooldown duration of Ties That Bind:

  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank: ~ 11.3 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + Phasezerker: ~ 10s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 8.8 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic : ~ 7.5 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker: ~ 7 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 6.5 s

I did not attempt to keep the Rush stacks up while Ties That Bind was on cooldown, so I actually lost a few stacks during the process. If you keep the stacks up, the cooldowns will probably be slightly lower, but not by much.

I tested this several times and got consistent results, so I am pretty confident about the numbers.

This means that if you have CDR from guardian rank and a relic with CDR, the CDR from Phasezerker is pretty negligible (with or without Avatar) and the CDR added by Avatar even more so. If you do not use a CDR relic, the impact is much larger and I suspect the same is true if you do not get CDR from your guardian rank.

EDIT: The numbers mentioned above are wrong. They are a result of the bug described here: Phasezerker Amara and Restless (Spoilers, it's bad.). See my post below for correct numbers.

Do you have points in Restless?

Just clarifying if you got from an 18s cooldown to 11.3 with just 10% CDR from Guardian Rank.

No, I did not get any points in Restless. I can add some more tests with that added in the mix. I am also quite confused how I get from 18 down to 11.3 with just the Guardian Rank… oO (I double checked like 5 times that none of my other gear gives me any CDR :D)

Might be worth quoting this here. Do you get the same results when you test backwards (starting with 10% GR, 21% Relic, PZerker, Avatar)? Or after relaunching BL3?

I did not know about this. This probably explains the jump from 18 to 11.3. I’ll do some more tests with restarting the game between every test.

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If we really could ditch avatar, it might get pretty interesting!

Thinking the melee build might look something like this? I’d need to mess with it a bit and probably read around to see what melee skills are amazing and which are meh. That second VT point could also go to Personal Space or Do Unto Others. I don’t think 100% is entirely necessary

I don’t think you get 10% cooldown per rush stack with Phasezerker mod. I have that class mod and ran some basic tests.

With 25 rush stacks and 25% from skills, The fastest I could get phaseslam to come back was 20 seconds. Ties that Bind takes about 10 seconds to cooldown.

Considering I should be seeing cooldown that equals 275% cooldown bonus based on that legendary class mod description, phaseslam should be coming back in 9.33 seconds. Ties that Bind should be coming back in 4.8 seconds.

Obviously those numbers would be overpowered, so I’m just curious what the actual bonus is from the Phasezerker mod at full 25 stacks.

Is the gun damage buff also not exactly x25?

Ok, so it looks like the buggy behavior with CDR not being reset when removing skills was indeed the problem with my measurements. I did some more tests with restarting the game every time in between. The numbers I got from these tests look much more reasonable:

  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank: ~ 17 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + Phasezerker: ~ 14.1 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 11.7 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic : ~ 14.8 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker: ~ 12.2 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 10.4 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless: ~ 14.1 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless + Phasezerker: ~ 12.1 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 10.3 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless + 21 % CDR from Relic: ~ 12.4 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker: ~ 10.8 s
  • 10 % CDR from Guardian Rank + 25 % CDR from Restless + 21 % CDR from Relic + Phasezerker + Avatar: ~ 9.3 s

Again, this is without keeping the Rush stack up, so when doing that, the cooldowns will be a bit lower.

As we can see from this, Avatar actually removes between 1.5 and 2.4 seconds of the cooldown, depending on how much CDR we have from other sources. Restless removes between 1.1 and 2.9 seconds, a CDR relic removes between 1 and 2.2 seconds and Phasezerker (without Avatar) removes between 1.6 and 2.9.
Basically, all of the CDR sources are quite similar, but Phasezerker and Phasezerker + Avatar seem offer the most CDR while at the same time suffering the least from diminishing returns.

I also did some more tests on what the buggy behavior is actually about. I was not able to get any buggy behavior with adding / removing items that give CDR, but I noticed there was some really strange behavior when resetting the skill points. Te me it looked like the CDR from the rush stacks + Phasezerker was getting “snapshotted” when resetting the skillpoints, but I don’t know if that is what actually happens.

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Does the Avatar skill give a cooldown buff?

It increases the maximum amount of rush stacks you can have, which in combination with the Phasezerker class mod increases your CDR.

Ok gotcha. I’ve been loving this build so far.

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Hey @Twixled, thanks for this build! I made a video showcasing this build, but the build I was using was from the other thread by the other guy (sorry, I forgot your name! :frowning: ) and before seeing this thread, so the build I used in the video was slightly different, but basically the same nonetheless.

Is Restless not really doing anything for this build? Is it only for this build, or is it not actually doing anything?

Anyways, will prolly post the vid here in a few hours. I’ll redirect any questions I get to this thread, as this is very informative. Thanks again!

Restless doesn’t do much because the Phasezerker mod gives us so much CDR that we get some harsh diminishing returns from it.

There may be some optimal loadout where you put just a few points in Restless to maximize your CDR without hitting a big DR wall. Which I don’t think will happen as long as we’re taking Avatar with Phasezerker. Maybe in a melee build where we don’t go all the way down to Avatar, Restless might be good. I’ll be looking into it soon

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When you invest heavily into CDR (Phasezerker, CDR artifact, possibly even an CDR shield) it will reduce the CDR by another 1 second. That doesn’t sound all that good. But in prolonged fights, this can enable you to cast Phasegrasp 5 times instead of just 4x. This is basically 25% more often and can make all the difference. A really hard-hitting enemy being taken out of the equation and therefore increasing your survivability while also increasing your damage an additional time? Is that worth it? Decide for yourself.
This method of looking at cooldown reduction can be universally applied. Don’t directly look at the cooldown timer. Just translate e.g. “+25% cooldown reduction” into “25% more often being able to use your action skill” because this point of view is free of diminishing returns. That gives you a better idea of its worth.
Because of that I’m able to use Phasegrasp 3 time as often as I’d normally be able to without making use of Avatar’s mechanic.

I don’t believe it does make any difference. Yeah, you could get an entire extra use in the same time period. But that would require you to use Phasegrasp on cooldown 10 or so times in a row to make those extra seconds add up to another Phasegrasp, which is unlikely if you were to use it effectively every time.