Yes Chuck i do agree, but I was merely just trying to test the viability of this build with any Pitchfork against the Invincible Sentinel. I know shock could fair slightly better than NE against the first form given a slightly different build. But I was mostly just wanting to assess the potential with a Pitchfork and this build against this certain boss. It was actually quite difficult for me to even use the Flayer and Luck Cannon to take out the first form.
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thank you for all that information I ssay many times and my conclusion is the same as yours
electric pitchfork is fine for the first two shield removed sentinel in its smallest form and then I use the neutral
for this fight I am focused heavily on the small form because I know that this is the most difficult
pitchfork for cryo I ssay and tested the build chronicle of elpis although I know it will not do the same damage
The Pitchfork is not a good gun for the first form:
The horizontal shot pattern, with the size of your target means youâll miss half your shots, and there isnât much around to make trick shot efficient.
Keep your ammo for the big form where all your shots will land on crit.
I suggest you try a high-output shock gun for the first form, like a pair of anarchists, or a glitched thinking.
Of course, since the whole fight is in atmosphere, a NE equivalent with hot lead could have great results too.
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Both of those are automatics though which would likely perform better used with a Nisha build utilizing Unchained.
The real problem I face when I was testing this build however is the lack of rough rider, saddle up, rarin to go, and thunder crack down.
Dropping the builds gun damage 95% and reload speed 60% over my build. Yes you gain crack shotâŠ
I get it though. At that point were just talking about my build.
But to me those are very hefty losses in damage and dps and its easily noticeable to myself as I always compare any build I test to my own.
The build does have the first 2 you named. The only thing thatâs lacking is rarinâ to go (and an extra 5 order stacks, but since you don,t have rarinâ to go, itâs not that big a deal)
Iâm not a big fan of Rarinâ. I get that itâs pretty powerful, but itâs not as good overall as what you can get for the points you need to invest to get it. Against bosses, the maths are easy: get as much DPS as you can, because the target can absorb it all, so Rarinâ makes sense. But against anything else in the game, stacking Rarinâ on top of a 66% Tombstone is just plain overkill, and totally unnecessary, especially with a gun as powerful as the Pitchfork. The worst part is that it costs 10 points to get a fully functional Rarinâ since you have to spend points to get to it, and those points are almost wasted. You not only get crack shot (which is much better at mobbing than it is at bossing, and much more reliable to get that explosive nova thanks to itâs many âfirstâ shots) an extra 5 points to spend somewhere else, like on Unchained as you mentioned 
I have not made a build with Rarinâ since level cap 60, Tombstone is all you really need for 99% of the game when it comes to kill skills.
I think the addition of Pickpocket is very clever: the Pitchfork has a big enough mag size to accomodate the extra 6 bullets without forcing you to watch what youâre doing too precisely, and at 132 bullets total, 6 extra is a nice gain
Edit: One last thing that just came to me.
When mobbing, extra points in trick shot can actually increase effective DPS much more than Rarinâ
The pitchfork is already very powerful, the extra pellets that will miss most man-sized targets can ricochet and kill something else on their own, effectively extending your ammo supply if you play to it. If you manage to kill 2 things with a single shot thanks to trick shot, you not only repaid the extra ammo cost of the pitchfork, but you also increased your DPS in a way that most damage increase canât: by splitting it into 2 different targets.
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No, it does not have rough rider, or saddle up.
Also Iâm afraid you likely havenât tested trick shot with the Pitchfork, as it does not act at ALL like you would think/want it to, trick shot is actually pretty useless with trick shot. Iâll make a video real quick to show you what I mean.
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Iâl say this now, no which way you can spin it does 95% gun damage and 60% reload speed equate to being less useful against mobbing than it does against bosses, its equally better against both, sorry. Crack shot is a terrible skill, and even less usefull with a Pitchfork as the magazine size is absolutely massive, so unless you want to reload after each shot, which is completely â â â â â â â â , then its a wasted skill over rarin to go. And if trick shot doesnât help support the wasted shots of the Pitchfork, which my video will clearly demonstrate, then what point is there to not taking rarin to go?
You can clearly see in my video, the bullets shot from the Pitchfork can not all ricochet from Trick Shot, only ONE bullet (most likely just the one in the center, but further testing would be needed to confirm) is able to ricochet. Like I said, pretty useless.
Donât get me wrong though, Trick Shot is great, just not as usefull with Pitchfork as other guns.
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Oh, right. I confused Saddle up with discipline, my bad.
I asked Afro about rough rider already, I think itâs just a mistake⊠anyway, I concede the point 
Thatâs most unfortunate. Wel, thatâs what you get for testing using only theory. Trick shot works weird with some multiple-pellets guns, I didnât know it applied to the Pitchfork, my bad again.
Allright, Iâll answer that in steps because this is something that we already have butted heads over in the past. As of my earlier reply on the subject, I wasnât thoroughly informed on the specific interaction between trick shot and the Pitchforkâs extra projectiles, so letâs just drop that part of the argument for now if you will.
Notwithstanding what you could buy with those extra skill points as a point of comparison: letâs just explore the concept of âmaximum DPS VS Optimum DPSâ As weâve already had the âDPS VS anything elseâ debate, iâll mostly just rehash my stuff for the casual reader.
Like I said, against bosses, the more DPS you have the better. It just makes sense: youâre trying to kill one thing, so youâre gonna give it all you have. But for mobbing, there IS such a thing as too much DPS. Whenever youâre making a compromise to increase your damage, you are dropping something else you could have had instead, so that extra damage better be worth it.
Now if you already have enough DPS to kill something in one shotâŠand you increase your damage⊠what exactly have you gained ?
The smaller your damage increments are, the more useful extra damage is: if you could kill something in 8 shots and you can now kill it in 5, youâre much better off: it takes less time to achieve your goal, and youâve spend less resources doing it (and you are also one enemy safer for the difference in time)
but as you start approaching 1-hit kill territory, the importance of adding further DPS on top begins to lessen: sometimes a 2 shot kill will remain a 2 shot kill⊠getting closer on the first shot doesnât bring much more
So while developing builds for Salvador (the absolute king of DPS in the BL world) most good Sal players came to the conclusion that there was a point where DPS should be, and having more simply wasnât useful. reaching more and more DPS wasnât even a challenge: thatâs what Sal does. But reaching that sweet spot where you have just enough DPS to kill anything you want in a relatively good time, and still have enough skills to spend on other aspects of the game like survivability, ammo usage, contingencies⊠That was the goal.
This holds true for Nisha as well.
itâs clear to anyone whoâs watched any videos from this build thread that there is no NEED for further DPS: The Pitchfork is stupidly powerful in Nishaâs hands. I canât imagine anything this game has to offer that this build canât kill in less than 10 seconds except the raid bosses. And since this is an argument about âmore DPS for mobbing is useful/uselessâ the time it takes to kill the 2 raids is irrelevant. So what would killing anything in 7 seconds or less instead of 10 bring ? that 95% damage boost might look impressive on paper, but would it make a noticeable difference in real play ? Against bosses, no doubt, but mobbing ? ⊠unlikely. (also, that reload speed boost is nice, but when youâre mobbing, Impatience is MUCH better than against bosses and can carry you alone⊠or with FnYâŠand showdown⊠you already reload stupidly fast is what I mean)
In short: For bosses, DPS is king, but for mobbing, a careful balance of many things (including DPS) is often preferable to a pure glass canon
âŠ
Now, you are absolutely right in that there isnât much ELSE to spend these points in (if that trick shot thing holds true to further testing) so we might as well put points there, since there are so many of them since the last level cap increase (remember the many discussions on the board about how it killed diversity ? this thing weâre having here is a good example of that 
).
But I seriously doubt that increasing DPS further would make this build more effective for general play: It already empties the screen in half a showdown! Rarinâ activates ONLY when Tombstone also does⊠itâs pure overkill. If we only had the skill points available in 50 or 60 cap, I would definitely recommend against Rarinâ. As it stands⊠itâs a push to me. Iâd rather have something else than rarinâ but I think itâs mostly personal choice at that point.
âŠ
About Crack shot.
I know you tested crack shot extensively, but I stand by my point, and a bit by yours: Crack shot, when seen as a pure DPS increase is a terrible skill. But crack shot, when used as a utility skill, is pretty good: That extra damage may be the difference between a kill and a wounded enemy, the explosive nova is also pretty good for getting rid of smaller critters you might not want to spend one of those expensive sniper bullets on, and itâs a damage increase that is independent of kill skills, which means it can give you itâs bonus at the start of a fight to get that Tombstone mayhem rolling (which conveniently also happens to be a moment where you usually have a full mag)
And the Pitchforkâs mag size is DECEPTIVELY big 
yes itâs around 14, but at 2 ammo per shot, itâs just 7 shots
(that is, if you wisely use the Jakobs grip instead of the Dahl one)
so overall: no, itâs not a powerful skill, but itâs a useful one.
âŠ
What would a PERSONALLY do with those points ?
Good question. First, I would buy Rough rider.
Then, I think I would invest in 2 skills that Afro didnât: Bottled courage for extra survivability, and High Noon. Yes, High noon⊠sounds silly right ?
But when mobbing, you will kill things VERY VERY fast, and that means your showdown will extend quite a bit, making that extra damage pretty high.
Also, itâs a source of damage that is also independent of kill skills, which means that you would have access to it against the first phase of the sentinel, and at other times where activating tombstone is not possible. Itâs a DPS increase like rarinâ (although not as powerful as rarinâ) but itâs a versatile one that doesnât activate at the same time as my biggest DPS increase, so it makes for a smoother ride all over. Again, Balance for mobbing, brute power for bosses.
I may also use a purple COM instead of a blue one and spend a single point in Unchained to help my backup guns. I do lose a point of Tombstone, but itâs worth it in my mind.
This is just MY personal take on it though, Afro knows his stuff as well as anybody. 
(⊠though Iâm really curious about that lack of rough rider)
Awww man⊠I just saw your trick shot video⊠this sucks big time 
Agreed, I honestly had no Idea this was the case until I was testing the Pitchfork with this build and noticed it for myself. I was pretty disappointed as well.
I just donât think your thinking about mobbing situations quite the way the game plays out Chuck. Let me explain what I mean.
Lets say we take my build which uses Jurisdiction, Rarin to go, and Thunder Crackdown, those 10 points you keep talking about. Those skills equal 65% gun damage and 60% reload speed. Ignoring saddle up which adds another 25% because some people just like to use ruthless for mobbing for whatever reason.
That being said we take those same 10 points and apply them into crack shot, 4 more points into trick shot and 1 point into impatience. from those skills you get 50% damage on your FIRST shot ONLY. 20% reload speed every kill you get before you reload, and more trick shot %. Weâll just call this the crack shot build so i can reference it easier.
So now we take both builds out and go mobbing, with the crack shot build we come up against 10 mobs. We shoot the first mob in the head with whatever gun, crack shot helps to get an easy kill because our damage is increased 50% from that single bullet that killed the mob, we now have a kill skill and the rest of the mobs all go down pretty easy.
With my build we do the same thing, we go out to those 10 mobs, shoot one little trash mob in the head, it dies in one shot. and we proceed to annihilate the rest with the same relative ease as the crack shot build.
What you and I are trying to say is mostly the same, the only thing I think you fail to grasp is, Nisha doesnât have any ammo recovery skills, any skills that are going to be more useful in conserving ammo, or doing splash damage to be able to easily kill of grouped up mobs faster than say, just doing TWICE your freaking damage, like with my build. Doing more damage, because you wont always get one shot kills even with my build on every mob, decreases ammo usage. if you are literally doing twice as much damage with my build, not dps, because that 60% reload speed increases my dps even further than that, iâm just talking about that 95% gun damage, that means my bullets are literally doing nearly TWICE the bullet damage as the crack shot build. Aside from the first shot from the mag, but all other bullets will do half the damage of my build. THAT is ammo conservation, that is a better way to invest your skill points, no one can argu with that.
So then we go fight those 2 bosses your talking about, The Invincible Sentinel, or Eclipse/EOS. both will give the Crack Shot build a hard time, there will be ammo issues, probably take two to three times longer to do the event and it will be much more of a struggle than just using my build.
I know you donât use rarin to go, and I doubt youâve given it much of a chance considering how your always going on and on about how you prefer crack shot, so you probably fail to know how insanely fast you get those 30 stacks with a Shield of Ages on UVHM (you get 30 stacks the second you get hit by practically ANY enemy). And iâm sorry, but there is NO SITUATION in this game where you will not have a kill skill when mobbing, thatâs just silly. And I donât know exactly why there were no enemies in that video @byzoo_style made of the Sentinel, as I always have enemies spawning as soon as the Invincible Sentinel becomes active for his very first phase. Maybe that was just bad luck, but there is no place in this game, no where, no situation where you are fighting that you will ever not be able to get a very easy kill skill. Every boss has a way, and when mobbing thatâs clearly a non issue.
So with crack shot + impatience + 4 more points in trick shot. Your trying to convince me that would be better for mobbing somehow.
But with a single kill skill and my build you activate a 65% gun damage and 60% reload speed bonus for EVERY SHOT of ANY GUN. Far more powerful at taking down Badasses FAR faster with less ammo, and any other enemies in yes, ONE shot.
So your choosing with those 10 points between a skill that gives you 50% damage to ONLY your FIRST shot in your magazine. And you then need to get 3 kills before reloading just to MATCH what rarinâs reload speed bonus grants you every reload regardless.
OR you could just have my build set up and while your killing have a permanent 65% gun damage and 60% reload speed regardless of how many enemies are killed and regardless of if its the first bullet in your magazine or your last. Sounds pretty clear and decisive to me. I know @byzoo_style, and @onlyin_kansas and many others will agree with me on this, as they have used my build for a long while and are well aware of how it performs.
Maybe I should clarify that I donât think this build sucks by any means and this is just that age old argument of skill choice preference between myself and @Chuck80, I know this build blows stuff away, it will only really find issues when you go up against the Invincible Sentinel and Eclipse/EOS, and by issues I just mean that it will take longer than I would want to ever be fighting those guys for as they can be quite annoying if you have to scrounge for ammo or be fighting them for any prolonged period of time, because the longer your stuck trying to fight against something, the higher your chances of death.
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Actually, the first build I posted here used Rarinâ I think itâs a very good skill. I gave it 3 stars in my skill guide and gave the same rating to the Lone Star COM because of it. There was a time in this game where you didnât actually have to chose between crack shot and Rarinâ⊠you could have bothâŠor none⊠there simply wasnât enough skill points to have that discussion as we never reached the point where we would go âwhat could I do with those last 15-20 points I have leftâ âŠwe had to make choices.
âŠ
I started my last post like this:
And you start your reply like this:
thatâs not exactly being fair with me isnât it. If youâre going to ignore the frame of reference around which I build my argument because itâs convenient to prove your point, then weâre in trouble. 
âŠespecially considering I have said that the skills I would pick would be bottled courage and High noon, and that I didnât know trick shot didnât work with the Pitchfork⊠so making me put 4 more points into trick shot is kind of a strawman, as itâs not actually something I would do.
Seriously dude, you really need to chill out a bit. No one is attacking your build by saying that they might prefer to use something different. Everyone knows that your build is the apogee of what Nisha can crank out. But if that means that everything else is strictly inferior, then there is no point in playing the game anymore. I know this is written form and it doesnât convey tone well, but it doesnât take a genius to get an aggressive vibe from your writing. I have been nothing if not courteous so far, and I expect the same out of you. Deal ?
Actually, there never are any enemies for the first phase, they start to spawn in the second phase. (well, as far as I remember, I have never seen any)
Ok, just one thing. I never wanted this to be a Crack shot VS Rarinâ debate. This build could go with either, both or neither⊠I used to defend Crack shotâŠagainst Hot lead, not Rarinâ (before I knew that Hot lead could proc off itself with TombstoneâŠI have since withdrawn my point) At no point in this have I said to pick crack shot over anything else⊠You mentioned that
âŠand I pointed out that you not only get crack shot, but also 5 extra skill points from not picking rarinâ (as Rarin effectively costs 10 points to get to) I just wanted to get the skill points maths straight, not trying to compare both skills in value.
I personally think Rarinâ is overkill for mobbing if you have 11/5 tombstone, and I think crack shot is a great tool for mobbing. Your replies on the subject have ALL been about how Crack shot doesnât provide as much damage as Rarinâ.
I know that.
That wasnât my point.
In your first example, you didnât mention the principal reason I find Crack shot useful:
Hereâs another scenario, one that DOES showcase what I was talking about when I said that crack shot was useful, using a modified version of your sentence
âwith the crack shot build we come up against 10 torks. We shoot the first tork in the head with whatever gun, crack shot helps to get an easy kill because our damage is increased 50% from that single bullet that killed the mob. ⊠Then, the tork explodes, and the explosive splash kills 4 more torks and breaks a barrel which kills 2 more torks⊠for one bulletâ
That TOO is ammo conservation
THAT is what I meant.
I know that Rarinâ is more powerful, so no amount of maths describing how much more powerful Rarinâ is isnât gonna convince me of anything since thatâs not the reason I like it.
Also, as I have already told you, there is also a playstyle element to this. If you want to hang back and use your sniper asâŠwell, a sniper, slowly picking off enemies with well placed headshots, then crack shot becomes IMMENSELY more interesting that Rarinâ. To each his own.
And as I have said that I would spend some of those points in Bottled courage, I donât think there are ways to compare how it measures up to rarinâ, so the point is moot at best.
As far as Iâm concerned, this build would be complete at level 60⊠the other points are justâŠthere. Spend them where you like.
I rarely fight the normal Sentinel, but for certain with the Invincible Sentinel there are enemies that do spawn every time in every phase, but ya Its possible for sure that the regular Sentinel has none for his first phase.
Ya its not very fair i guess i see your point there.
I know no ones attacking my build, and i donât care if someone uses a different build other than mine, I was just trying to honestly make my point that one skill set up is not as strong as another because of straight up stat points being either available all the time or just part time, i was just trying to voice my opinion on the set up and why i feel it is better.
yes deal.
I will just never understand how crack shot can be more useful than rarin is all. it makes zero sense. because there is no logical, or mathematical reason you could ever explain to me for me to understand your reasoning for it.
I get your point but the problem is I donât think that crack shot splash damage is as good as you think it is. And your basing your entire reasoning for choosing one skill over another that it seems like you clearly know nothing about. Maybe iâm wrong, and you have some fantastic spreadsheet somewhere someone has all typed up and data for it is evident of its usefulness. But since youâve stated nothing other than you think its useful because âthisâ I cannot agree with you at all on this matter. Come back with raw in game data, proof, on how crack shot functions, how its nova works, the range of the nova, the damage it does, is the nova damage influenced by % gun damage skills, or by base gun damage of the gun your wielding. You literally have given me nothing to go on to convince me that Crack shot has a superior usefulness over rarin to go in a mobbing situation.
So we can discuss further if you feel like you want to take the time to delve deeper into that skill, unless it has already previously been unraveled in which case just give me the link to the data and i will check it out.
That is something I can get behind. Itâs true that I donât have solid data on how Crack shot works and how itâs damage is calculated and such. And I would be interested in having said data. I sincerely hope someone gets to work on it, as itâs one of the last Nisha skill we have almost no data on.
Unfortunately, all I have is play experience: I know that, at least with some of the guns I use, that itâs enough to kill weaker enemies right off. I know if can break barrels and I know it staggers enemies caught in the blast. Most of all, I know that things generally go smoother when I have it specced (assuming Iâm using guns that make sense with it of course⊠no Shredifier or Anarchists)
âŠso as of now, youâre just gonna have to take my word for it
That is because iâm not trying to convince you of anything.
I just said that I like Crack shot, and that I prefer it over rarinâ.
(Which I consider to be a good skill, but total overkill for mobbing if you already have 11/5 tombstone as itâs also a kill skill.)
(or rather, I prefer Crack shot and 5 extra skill points over Rarinâ and a prerequisite skill)
I just stated my personal preference, not made an assessment of value.
If this was my build, I might actually have neither of those, since I wonât need extra points to go down RW, but if I was using an elemental Pitchfork (letâs say, for some cryo variant for example) then I would pick crack shot, as Hot lead would not be an option.
If I was trying to convince you, you bet your ass I would have data to back me up
This is what was throwing me off, as usually you have too much data, and math, and more, as well as self tested experience and such.
Thatâs good cause Iâm not really convinced of anything 
I hope as well as you do someone will be willing to tackle testing the ins and outs of Crack Shot and bring us back a mountain of data on exactly how it works and all the damage values and skill stacking that affects it etc.
Someone other than myself would be fantastic 
Maybe I can try to convince my friend @Retrodenizen to do some testing on this in the near future if he has any spare time from his busy life.
hint hint wink wink Retro
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This argument never gets old. I see it as a success of the skill developers. They made a hell of a job in TPS.
It is very complicated to compare the benefits of Crackshot vs Rarin. Both of their impacts are highly situational.
Please also keep in mind the effect of the rarin is ZERO without order stacks. When mobbing do not expect to have 30 Stacks by default. Lets say you have 5 enemies in front of you and you killed each of them without getting a scratch. Then you will get only 5 stacks ( Assuming Blood of Guilt is invested 1 skill point) and that means a miniscule of bonus from Rarin to go.
I can assure you I am very big fan of Rarin to go. But when I go for mobbing, it is never my priority.
(For mobbing, I only invest into RtG to reach to the Thunder crackdown, which is fun as hell. and with Pickpocket it solves my ammo problems)
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Maybe I should just run the invincible sentinel with this build⊠I will record and post it. I will not be using the Sham, for obvious reasons. Probably adaptive shield.
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I kill sentinel invincible i use flayer for the gardien and switch pitchwork électric préfix night for shiel a sentinel and when no Shield i use pitchwork neutral préfix night
This kill is not quickly i run for ammo around the arena
BTW, the pacifying prefix is better than the night prefix in every way.
Another thing for those using the Pitchfork and timing its use with kill skills and showdown: showdown doesnât actually do anything for the Pitchfork: the fire rate increase is irrelevant as the gun is semi auto and the damage bonus doesnât apply to sniper rifles. Youâd probably get better results by starting to shoot immediately after you get a kill and activating showdown after a few shots to correct recoil and maybe benefit from the reload speed bonus an additional time.
Using it this way may also make gunslinger something to consider, now that we know trick shot isnât worth 5 points.