Fun take: 65 levels has exceeded the point where more levels increase build diversity

Some simple math to start: no character can spend more than 130 skill points.

  • Amara: 46 + 41 + 43 = 130
  • Moze: 37 + 45 + 39 = 121
  • Fl4k: 44 + 41 + 44 = 129
  • Zane: 42 + 41 + 40 = 123

Once you exceed the halfway point, the number of skill tree permutations decreases with every skill point (dependencies muddy this, but I don’t know how to model that). This is all academic because the number of builds the community considers worth exploring has alway been much less than the number of permutations, but still some fun food for thought.

Given that we expect a third skill to have a similar number of investment opportunities, we would see similar saturation with level 80-87. However we can access 3 capstones at level 79.


It’s approaching the point now where without new skill trees you might as well describe builds based on which skills you didn’t take instead of the ones you did. 63 points is enough to get 2 caps plus 1/2 way down the 3rd tree. Not complaining but new trees can’t come soon enough


Adding more points will decrease diversity simply because builds that required you to take one of two paths can now be supported by the extra points. This in turn will create more hybrid builds that will eventually merge into singular builds that include all of the main aspects of what were once separate builds.

I’m noticing this now as I’m helping a friend new to playing Moze, who has a ton of different builds, with a lot of diversity based on weapons, anoints, skills, and play style. But a common theme seems to show up in all of the builds…incendiary damage. And with options for it in all three trees, at fairly low investments, it’s almost an auto-include. Unlike say Zane, his current main, where diversity is pretty much limited to SNTNL + Clone or SNTNL + Barrier.

In BL2, I played around with a few characters that had maxed out all skills. And while it was fun for a bit, I found that I was really just settling in on the same familiar play styles. Having access to everything at once didn’t necessary open up new options for me. I was just a bit stronger, but overall, I played the same as when I had the normal limits.

Adding a new skill tree would help increase the longevity of the game, and it could be handled in such a way that it didn’t destroy the current level of diversity. For starters, they could introduce a new type of level, with its unique form of skill points. These skill points can only be used in the new skill tree and only those skill points. This way the current builds don’t become melded into a single uniform set of skills. This is assuming that there is a need for more skill points.

Otherwise, just keeping the soon to be max of 63 points, between 4 skill trees would open up a lot of diversity, but only if the new skill trees offer something truly unique.

  • Moze needs something that allows her to take advantage of ASA anoints.
  • Zane needs something to support ASE anoints (outside of exploiting the current AS canceling routines).
  • For Fl4k, I’d like a temporary pet that can be dismissed or lasts for a limited time, like IB. I really hate the way their pets get in the way of everything.
  • I’m not sure what Amara needs, if anything. Outside of a bit more survivability, for me specifically, she seems to be fine. Maybe something to benefit group play?

I actually have a couple of Moze builds where I don’t put any points into incendiary damage at all. Primarily to take advantage of shock weapons and the Transformer to stay alive. FitSD and any incendiary damage causes too much self damage when using those mechanics.


True, true, and I’ve been toying with a non-incendiary build so I can use the Complex Root without killing myself (using shock/Transformer or rad/Red Suit).

I just meant that the majority of builds out there include FitSD since it scales with Mayhem so well, and we’re looking currently at just pure easy damage to start. But yes, it’s possible to make one that doesn’t include any incendiary damage from skills. I had one for my mind sweeper build because of the fun way mini grenades would proc on Moze.

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The one advantage I can see is that you can spend the extra points in such a way that:

  • The exact distribution of the 5 skill points on a legendary COM is less important
  • It will be easier to swap COMs for different situations without having to respec

So while builds will start to converge (absent another skill tree), you can potentially gain diversity through other means. A similar thing applies to Augments as you gain more skill points - you can have more unlocked, which allows you to change on the fly.

Now, we just need some new COMs!


Anointments killed build diversity. There are a few anointments and a handful of skills that work well together, and all builds will be based on that small group of options. Everything else is a waste of time and the results range from doable but tedious and no fun to just not working.

The problem isn’t as simple as the number of options, it’s how those options work. And in many cases the anointment makes far more difference than the character or skill. Ties that Bind with Amara being the obvious exception. But how many Amara builds do not include that skill?


Remember when difficulty was just difficulty? Whatever was tough, we just persevered and kept retrying?

Meta what? (Boo!). Lol!

I do agree with the thread and the thinking’s within it. :slight_smile:

Personally, I would like more points. When there are more than 120 available point distributions, I want more than half. I get that with the points we have now, we can unlock 2 capstones. I have 4 maxed characters, and only one has 2 capstones, and that’s my FL4K, and I have none in the blue tree, and even with 5 more points next week, I still may not, because there are a couple other skills I like that I only have 4 of 5, so I may just max them. My Moze is all red and green, but since TD doesn’t work with my 1hp build, I don’t use it. Much like FL4K, though, I could still use those 5 points to finish maxing other skills, but will likely throw them all in fire in the skags den. Both Zane and Amara for me each have one capstone, and then a little bit in one tree and a fair bit in the other. While, yes, if they gave us 78 points, we could mainline down each tree and cap them all, I wouldn’t, because I don’t just run straight down, I spread out in the tree. That said, I don’t necessarily want that many points with just the three trees, but I’d like maybe 70 or 72. If they eventually do ad fourth trees, I’d be disappointed with less than 80, and would prefer 90. Diversity isn’t just limited to skill trees; coms and gear choice okay into it, too. Not to mention, frankly I think the three trees we have, with the coms we have, allow for way, way more diversity than we see now, but only so many of the possible builds are viable on M10, so that’s what everyone gravitates toward. If we weren’t all so obsessed with M10, I think in lower mayhem’s, there would be a ton of diversity.

I’d like to see an UI that allowed for augment swapping on the fly as easily as swapping weapons or firing modes (taking into account cool-downs and such).

Being able to quickly swap between skills/augments in a multiplayer game without having to enter the Echo, where you’re defenseless would be a great QOL change. Just offering up different “load-out” options on the fly would be nice (swap gear and skills/augments), even if there was a cool-down. I could run and evade while my stuff changes over, instead of sitting in the menu, helpless. Especially with the persistent lag that plagues consoles, despite GBX saying it’s been fixed.

90% of the game feels like they only tested the single-player aspects.

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A good target to aim for, then!

Aren’t we pretty much guaranteed to get new skill trees so this is fine?