You are still underestimating how much would need to be changed to suit character swaps. It goes much beyond a toggle or two, we’re talking about rebalancing and reworking the entire cast.
To give you an example - Pendles, a character revolving around being stealthed, is on the opposing team. You are playing a character who can make helix choices that help you fight against stealthed characters. The player controlling Pendles realizes you’ve just made the rest of the match difficult for them, so they switch characters. You’re now stuck with the consequences of their decision. You can either play the rest of the game with a helix choice you no longer want, or take the same handicap as them. Nice feeling, isn’t it?
There’s my constructive response. To be more blunt, you are asking for something unreasonable, plain and simple. Being locked into a character choice is the same as any other MOBA, and Battleborn shouldn’t change that. To do so is to pull at a foundation of the game, and the most likely result is that the whole thing will topple down.
You actually have a very relevant example in your posts, but not in your favor as you thought.
Chaos Rumble is exactly what would happen if a change like this were implemented. Initially fun and allowing for some additional freedom and creativity…
Until you run into the 5 stack Ernests, Beatrix, etc. Because nothing was done to accommodate such a fundamental change, the house fell over, and people are just rooting about in the ruins looking for bricks to throw at each other. And that’s why Chaos Rumble is just a temporary playlist that they bust out every so often. It’s not meant to represent any sort of a balanced game.
Pros and cons. I’d beg to differ but unless it were implemented to test, it’s all conjecture.
Offering as a separate game mode would be the deciding factor. I’m willing to bet that it would become popular if given the chance. Also, another reply to this post suggested a rumble mode where ALL helix nodes are unlocked (as in the new dojo). Regardless, it still would be something to consider as a different option that may interest others. Bottom line, I like ability to switch out characters if I’m not enjoying my first pick.
Im not talking about ruining the current team comp, I’m thinking more like changing characters within the same class. But regardless it’s often useful in Overwatch and I could see it being useful and strategic in Battleborn. I’m not the only one playing th S who feels this way. I have several friends who also wish we could switch, and would gladly sacrifice Helix nodes to do so.
Chaos Rumble is temporary. Why not try a temporary rumble mode where all Helix nodes unlocked (like in the dojo) and ability to switch characters? Just temporary? This game clearly suffers from lack of players. (Overwatch does not.) They are both fun games. Perhaps pulling in Overwatch people by offering a similar aspect (being able to switch toons) yet introducing them to some more unique Battleborn aspects like minions and buildables as well as Helix layout may be a way to entice new players. Just saying.
My point about Chaos Rumble was that it doesn’t hold up. With the 4th (5th?) time it’s come around, I’ve gotten thoroughly tired of it. People already know how to break it, how to make matches as boring as possible, it’s just dull. And a lot of the time people just ignore the fact that they can use duplicate characters and still choose normal team comps, so that further renders the gametype pointless.
It would be the same thing with your proposed switching mode. A fun diversion, for a short while, but ultimately an unrewarding addition.
I don’t want to turn you off a game if there’s something in it you like, but if you think this is something necessary for you to be able to completely enjoy the game, I’m sorry - I don’t think this is the game for you. Battleborn being starved for players doesn’t change the fact that not everyone can enjoy what it is. I’d rather the game die after being something I completely love for as long as it can be, than see it turned into something I’d actively hate and then thrive for years. I’ve already had that happen with a certain other role-based shooter. Maybe that’s selfish, but it’s how I feel.
My point is: I bet you (and others) actually would not hate it as you claim. Without actually experience how it could play out in a real match, perhaps you don’t realize its benefit.
Here is the deal. Even with the new update of seeing the other team layout in the selection phase, it isn’t a perfect strategic solution. Ability to switch characters mid game could be a welcome addition to a team’s strategic arsenal. There is never a really hard and fast team comp that will always serve as a perfect counter to another team comp. Factors that affect it are simply each teams ability to actually play the selected character well. There are no perfect counters to each Battleborn, and most of it results from the player’s ability to effectively utilize them. So even if you think your team layout is good, you may find yourself being destroyed once the game starts and you find out quickly who is really the strong players on the opposing team. So in this situation, (and 9 times out of 10 you will realize this before your 2nd Helix node unlocks), switching your toon to better adapt to the other team’s “wrecking ball” toon that is dominating your the game would be a welcome option. Sure you’d lose your Helix, but as I said, you’d likely realize the need to switch pretty early on in most cases, so hopefully you could make up for the loss rather quickly.
Later in the game, sure, I would bet nobody would switch after investing in Helix nodes especially past level5 where you gain your ultimate… but early game I think it could help tweak the counter strategy against the other team.
Plus, as I said, if this isn’t for everyone, making it an optional mode, (in the same way it was an optional mode to have unique players on or off) then you would not feel as though your game took a bad turn if you could still play in the currently “normal” mode.
Options are always nice and keeping things fresh and interesting would undoubtedly attract much needed support for this struggling game.
I am actually familiar with coding, and my son is a programmer… he agrees that you are over-exaggerating the coding complexity. Yes its not just a couple mouse clicks and line changes, but its not a rewrite of the entire PVP system. Its not rocket science, and can be done without rewriting the entire game.
On the gameplay subject, if you’ve ever played Overwatch, when you change, you still see what others on the team have selected, so you can still find the right balance. For example, Miko, Alani, Ambra and Kid Ultra are all healers. Maybe you pick one and realize you are not able to successfully do the role you selected for your team. By switching to a different healer that may work better, you have not upset your teams balance, but have instead enhanced your team by being the right healer given the other team’s skills. Team comps in the beginning only look good on paper. Only after you start playing will you actually realize who you need to be and who you really need to counter. Sure they can change too to adapt, but again, it all comes as a risk to Helix nodes, so its a strategic decision regardless.
And I am not trying to suggest to turn this game into Overwatch by any means. What I love about this game is the additional environmental factors such as AI minions, thrall, turrets, healing stations, etc. These give this much more depth and challenge to the MOBA playing field. I just get bugged often after starting a game and realizing I chose a character that is getting wrecked and letting down my team, and having to ride it out the whole match to nobody’s benefit. Not sure about you, but some games I can be team leader on kills or assists with say Ambra, and other matches I have nothing but deaths with her. Its all dependent on the other teams ability to play the characters they chose. In those cases I’d gladly sacrifice a few helix nodes to get something that may suit the situation better.
And side note, Overwatch is a MOBA, in the same way Battleborn is a MOBA. They are both BATTLE ARENAS, with classes (assault, tank, defense, healers) and strategically varied character types within each class where team comp does actually matter. Overwatch is not simply an FPS shooter… have you played it seriously for any length of time?
That takes moba as a very literal definition, and completely separates it from every defining feature that makes a moba. Overwatch is an FPS, pure twitch game with one added layer of abilities which isn’t that different from the loadout mechanic of TF2. That doesn’t make it any more a moba than TF2 was.
Also, putting aside the coding work involved, the entire game would have to be rebalanced if switching was a thing. The game was balanced around the mechanic that you are stuck with your character for the entire game, and changing that would require major overhauls to the system for it to not break the game. Sure, we could have it as an event like Chaos Rumble, but like Chaos Rumble it will lose its charm rather quickly, making the whole effort moot.
Gearbox has already stated they will not have a game where you start at level 10. I think it was in the same reply stating they won’t make a dm/tdm mode.
Relevant conjecture - Personally, with the increase in exp and lower cap times, i dont think they need to start at level 3 with shards in capture the former two changes were plenty.
edit: i should also note you start at 5 in the dojo. and its a pain. wish it was one or ten, but not 5…
Gearbox says this, in an article in GameInformer- Gearbox describes their new game as a “hero shooter,” but the hive-mind of the Internet oversimplified it as “another MOBA.” While visiting the studio in Plano, Texas, we spoke with design director John Mulkey and creative director Randy Varnell about comparing the game to the MOBA genre and what separates the two in their minds…
OK, then I maintain that there should simply be a mode that allows player switching up to say node 3 on helix. After that you are locked in. How’s that for a compromise? Trust me, it would retain strategic elements of team making yet allow for some early game corrections.
Sorry, as I stated in my original post, this forum is poorly laid out, and does not group direct replies with associated posts, so I was probably replying to someone else regarding MOBAs accidentally to you. On my screnn anyway, it all just becomes one huge sequential thread with no connection between individual conversations/replies.
Am I the only one who thinks that Battleborn doesn’t really have clear classes? There’s too much muddiness, too much meta spaghetti, and too much difference between intent and outcome. Galilea is played as a sentry-pushing tank, but to hear the balance team talk, she’s supposed to be a territorial defender; Mellka is classified as an assassin but they’ve officially said the vision for her is as a skirmisher. Meanwhile, the supports aren’t remotely interchangeable with each other. You can’t say “This teams lacks a support!” and then someone locks in Kleese and boom, problem solved. What you need is character x - a Miko, an Alani, an Ambra - because they complement character y (not class y).
I argue it would not break the game nor require rebalancing. I think you are way over-thinking it. Its not as deep as you make it out. Changing up a character early on in the game wont break the balance. Its a minor tweak that would pan out in the end regardless. Its not that big of a deal but I feel would be a welcomed addition. Sheesh people here act like this game is some sort of perfectly balanced masterpiece. Its not. its a video game, and there are many options that could make it more interesting and enjoyable.
How about two modes, one where you can switch up to node 3 on helix, and one as is. Choose your option to whatever you enjoy.
I agree with you 100%. That’s why on “paper” a good team load out at selection doesn’t always pan out in the game. That’s why I think ability to switch (at the very least switch before Helix node 2 or 3), would allow for some fine tuning correction when you realize your original composition is failing miserably, rather than slog out an entire 20+ minutes on a crappy loadout.
Ok, so they are both MOBAs in the same way that you could call them MOBAs, and they are not MOBAs for many other reasons that they don’t compare to “official” MOBAs. So my gameinformer post was simply to say that even Gearbox does not consider it a MOBA. I think regardless of what you choose to label them, I play the BOTH quite frequently one right after the other. I interchange them as I get burned out on one the other becomes fresh, and vice versa. I will say that they are VERY SIMILAR games in many ways. So in that regard, I am arguing that if balancing still works after switching in Overwatch, I’m sure there is a way for it to work in Battleborn.
Another great thing that GBX could implement would be a play of the game replay to highlight someone’s efforts from the round and perhaps a new game mode where you escort/defend a payload!