I’d rather wait for that mod to come out, then add something else on top of it, if I do anything at all. I’ve been wasting too much time with it. :confused: Don’t really get why others can’t…

You should just learn to mod the game. It’s easy. It took me a few hours to get proficient at it.
You just read the guide GBX posted on steam, except ignore the part where it says only Homeworld2 mods are supported and replace Homeworld2 with HomeworldRM in paths.
And get SublimeText or Notepad++ for editing them.

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Ah, I mistook your context then.

Yeah, they should definitely be immune to all gravity wells.

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To be fair, GWG wasn’t supposed to be introduced in the game as the HW1 counterpart to EMP - though I won’t argue that the former is more useful. They’re both unique roles and examples of asymmetric gameplay across different races. EMP itself does have its advantages: it works on all ships and the ability is mounted on a faster and more agile craft.

As for the upcoming proposed GWG nerf itself, it is very significant. The Gravity Well radius being reduced by 25%, from 6750 to 5000, corresponds to a 60% decrease in the volume of the gravity well bubble. The range decrease forces GWGs to park closer to the edge of frigate and destroyer weapon range if they want to keep their salvettes enveloped against strikecraft; this makes it easier to snipe out or focus grav wells or at least force them to retreat to free the strikecraft (note that all frigates move faster than GWG).

As for BCs, GWGs will no longer be able to completely screen them against strikecraft since their bubble now falls short of their weapon range (5000 vs 6000).

We are arguing in circles about this part of the discussion. You’ve already deconstructed each facet of the salvette’s movement with the following quote:
“-Salvage corvettes move faster, are more maneuverable and latch faster and with less problems to their targets than marine/infiltrator frigates”
I’m not saying or implying that salvettes move better overall, I was simply correcting you on the part that salvettes don’t move faster. I did agree with you on the other parts about better latching, maneuverability and pathfinding because they are true.

I’m not sure how you arrived at the 26K/364K hull figures for effective HP. Also, DD and BCs tend to have multiple kinetic guns in addition to usually being supported by other ships. Salvettes need this survivability against capital ship weaponry for the time it takes to travel to the target, latch on and then travel away out of combat (which can be the longest part of the process if the enemy has the sense to give chase and stop the capture/tow).

The situation I described does involve sending all the salvettes together against the BC. Sending them in one by one will result in significant losses.

Regardless, players usually have enough awareness to combat maneuver the threatened ship away from approaching salvettes to buy time as well as attempt to destroy the salvettes during the towing phase with other ships (including anti-strikecraft frigates).

For BC captures, losing salvettes tends to snowball easily as the target’s weapons will reactivate on the loss of one salvette during towing - even in the seconds it takes to replace the lost corvette(s), the rest will feel the damage of the pulsars/lances.

You still have to worry about everything else that can hit a corvette for the entire duration of the towing phase which again, is dependent on the speed of the towed ship and how far the battle is taking place from the mothership (factors which the marine/infiltrator frigate does not need to care about).

Outside of cheese rushes and early-game, this doesn’t happen. Decent HW1 players will not risk their irreplaceable mothership by jumping it close to the front line by the time a certain amount of DPS on the enemy’s side is in play (typically mid-late game). The general prevalence of hyperspace inhibitors dispels the common fantastical notion of insta-capturing enemy BCs without hindrance or consequence.

Also, capturing perfectly healthy units isn’t exclusive to the salvette - while it is tedious on cruisers, the capture rate for marine/infiltrator frigates against undamaged frigates and destroyers is very fast.

The fact still remains that the towing phase becomes much more of a hassle as the game progresses and is why salvettes do not see as much use in late-game over marine/infiltrator frigates. With the GWG radius reduction, the Salvette + GWG combo will be notably less powerful.

not true, in order for EMP to affect a unit it first needs to destroy the EMP shield which gets stronger with each bigger class, you only need one scout squad EMP strike to disable a fighter, 1.5 for a corvette, 3 for frigates, and due to it-s limited radius you can only disable ships in sphere of about 300 meters in diameter, in order for EMPs to be able to disable any unit you will need to build 8+ squads and constantly micro them

And yet is still and AOE 57900% larger than an EMP strike, with 3 times the duration and without having to micro to target the squads in the right place at the right moment

Wrong, frigates longest attack range (ion cannon) is 4000 meters so salvage corvettes are still within safe 5k range of the GWG without having to risk it

Wrong Again, first that attack range is for the main heavy guns, second even at 5K range the GWG AOE is 2.5 times larger the SC longest attack run range (1800 meters), which means that with GWG parked next to a BC, the GWG would still trap the SC which start attacking the frigates at the front of the formation (frigate phalanx formation)

And how many times will a 1v1 game with a HW1 vs HW2 fleets will last till mid-late game if the HW1 fleet resorts to this cheese balance exploit?

Chesse early game rushes can only be possible due to cheesy balance :wink:

like it or not GWG special ability needs to be rethinked

46%, no? But I feel like area is rather irrelevant here.
That would be like saying a weapon range reduction got its area of coverage reduced by some huge percentage when it doesn’t matter much. What matters is where you can position while keeping strike craft disabled in your ships range while it’s safe and far from their caps.
That said, yeah 5k is an alright start though I’d favor a redesign to its mechanics.

Also when it comes to GWG vs EMP, why compare something broken to something broken? EMP needs some sort of reworking as well, though more minor.

Yes I am aware of this. It wasn’t necessary to be pedantic about full details since I stated that while GWG is more useful than EMP to a race, both of these tools aren’t meant to be two sides of the same coin - in other words, EMP is not meant to be used as a benchmark for balancing GWG.

As a side note, EMP itself needs to be reworked.

We’re trying to discuss the balance of the salvette + GWG combo. This is just straying into EMP vs GWG discussion.

Wrong. I specifically said they need to be closer to the edge, not at the edge of the weapon range. The safe buffer zone GWGs have against those ship classes will be minimised which arguably does make them more vulnerable to pursuit and focus attempts (which players could do before by the way).

Which is the only relevant part of this point since they target and destroy GWGs in mere seconds. You are splitting hairs here.

This is a conveniently framed hypothetical which does not reflect the tactics and intelligence of players in an average game. Players who engage HW1 fleets (especially past early-game when GWG presence is guaranteed) do not make the mistake of putting their supporting strikecraft ahead of their entire force to be easily disabled by Gravity Wells.

Often. The salvette cheese rushes in question typically involves stealing their carrier by hyperspacing the MS/carrier on top of it and unleasing salvettes - best used against the same HW1 race since you can use or recycle the carrier. However, by the very definition of cheese, it’s a mixed bag and doesn’t always go according to plan or necessarily end up with gaining any significant advantage by its conclusion.

Like it or not, you are overstating the usefulness and effectiveness of the salvette + GWG combo for all phases of the game.

From 1288 to 523 cubic kilometres results in a volume decrease of approximately 60%. It would be nice if I had an overlay of the different sizes before and after to better convey this information visually.

Yes but much more relevant for a spherical AOE as the entire area of simultaneous effectiveness is exponentially reduced. But I do concede this point has less relevance to GWG + salvette combo than it does to the effect it has on the tactic of hyper-well rushes in the middle of large dispersed strikecraft engagements/movements.

I’m in complete agreement.

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I’d really like to get a gravity well that could slow specific units instead of outright disabling them.
Personally not terribly fond of either GWG or EMP right now. GWG just knocks strike craft right out of the picture, EMP isn’t quite so bad but it comes down to hitting it just as the group is forming on targets which is a bit metagamey.

Ah yeah you’re right.
But still, I don’t think volume here matters nearly as much as just actual range. Like it’s not like you have strikecraft evenly litered out in a spherical area where it really matters. It’s going to be in one fairly narrow slice of its range, and only the volume of that conical area is really relevant if you want to get super technical.
So I still look at 6750 to 5000 as more of a 26% decrease. 30% in practice to be super technical with how it’d change in practice.

Momo reminded me of something tonight that I honestly do not remember. Did the HW1 Classic gravwell slowly push fighters out of the well?

Yes. Corvettes remain trapped in place. Fighters slowly get pushed out at first and then faster as their drift speed accelerates.

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If the HWR Grav Well acted like that hw1 video, it would be much better.

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I like the idea of slowing down fighter/vettes while inside.

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yes, gravs pushed em out. i 100% agree that gravs are overpowered atm.

possible solutions?
reduce the radius by 30%
increase grav speed by 25%
recharge time increased by 75%

if i get out 1 grav, by the time it’s energy is almost gone, my second one is popping out. with the cheap cost of hypering them, i can render strike craft useless fairly quickly. hw2 races have no equivalent, and vaygr is practically neutered, considering their only options is their 2 frigs, a destro or bc.

iv’e been playing taidan a lot lately (rata’s fault) , and until the recent salv rushes… i was winning practically every game without building a single fighter.

i plan on doing exactly that. i think perhaps it is time we start taking some of these things off GB’s plate. it seems like they are a bit overwhelmed, undermanned, and spinning in circles (to a degree). no knock at all to the devs who are losing sleep over this, and working non stop to help make us all happy… but really, this forum is full of programmers, coders, modders, and serious vets who have a wealth of knowledge about how this game is supposed to work, and currently works. why must we sit back and wait… we can do this ourselves to a degree.

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imho, currently it is too good that no matter how hard you make it to activate it the second time (longer recharge/RU cost), it can still be pretty devastating with a good aim at vulnerable swarms.

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Imo, part of the reason forum discussions are getting very long is that there are some people who are expert at and love HW1 and some are same for HW2 and just a handful of people are so for both HW1/HW2 and as such, both are seeking to keep their original love in HWR and coming up with solutions with colliding interest or that they require a lot of man power and technical difficulties.

I really think gearbox needs to set a landing spot or else people will try to pull the game into whatever side they wish.

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Yes, true. They need a good whacking with the Nerf bat. But they still need to be worth using. IMO they should be a really good stall tactic or devastating when combined with a missile destroyer, but not the middle finger to all strike craft on the map they are now.

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Yep, agreed. We need to come together and find good solutions that make since for the game as a whole and stop the HW1 vs HW2 none since.