The campaign data and mp data is actually at least somewhat separated; case in point HW1 sensor arrays reveal everything permanently until they are destroyed in the campaign but in MP use the ping like hiig scouts (temporary vision with a 1000 ru cost)
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Separate the balance from MP and Campaign.
I’m hoping it was a simple, harmless oversight in your post, but if not it’s extremely worrying that you didn’t consider, let alone already decide, on doing that already… Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy there is communication, and I’m hoping this was just an innocent miscommunication.
HW1RM Campaign should have used the original games stats on ships to begin with, instead of being rebalanced like it was.
Most of the balance data is separated between MP and SP, but once you start tinkering with how ships fundamentally move and organize themselves, there is no clean way to separate the two without causing endless bugs and expectation gaps between SP and MP.
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Sure, but if formations and tactics worked decently, I would think that HW1 stats for units would also largely work for the campaign then while HWRM MP can have totally different numbers to balance them with HW2 units.
And I would hope that proper unit behavior, flight modeling/physics, and controls wouldn’t be a HW1 only feature and that they would effect HW2 races at least in HWRM MP as well. Otherwise an even larger balancing nightmare is made and the game can’t become as good as it could/should.
Ideally, HW2 Deathmatch mode would keep the current behavior where possible.
The “expectation” of HW1 campaign players was rather ruined as it plays totally different already and is much easier now, and you have to completely separate them and have HWRM MP be it’s own game. Best thing that could be done is to give HW1 campaign its old HW1 ship stats back and for them to completely change in MP.
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No idea what you’re talking about. Drone frigates rip through strike craft like a knife through butter. I always have some mixed it with my cap ships to make them fighter and corvette-proof (bonus if you have gravwells).
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Drone Frigates and Grav Wells are the two OP units HW1 races have. Yep.
1 Drone Frigate is basically 40 Defense Fighters, offensively.
Will we still see HW1 formations for SP? It affects MP, but I’d like them to take effect in SP as would many other people.
Thank you for your commitment and such frequent communication with the community, it’s truly unique!
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So what I get from what @Burly is saying is that the damage or accuracy or armor of a unit can be separate from one game mode to another (SP, MP) but that Formations, or how the AI paths or the way it moves during a combat maneuver (think corvettes from HW1 vs HW2) are NOT separate, or at least are much, much harder/messier to separate if even possible at all. I can think of more things that could potentially fall into this category (Support frigate repair functionality, harvesters, etc.)
You then also have the expectation gaps where a player moving from single player suddenly has vastly different units going into MP and this causes frustration cough HW1Vets cough. I can see how this, more than the previous cause major headaches for balancing.
Is there a compelling reason, other than HW1 vets expectations, to have vastly different HW1 units going from SP to MP or even to have vastly different unit stats going from HW1 death match to HWR MP game mode? Any major change to units (say they make HW1 frigates 3x as tough as they are now) will mean you have to run through the entire SP campaign with a fine toothed comb to make sure things like mission 3 or 11 doesn’t actually become impossible.
That said I hope there is a middle ground where changes can be small enough between SP and MP so that the expectation gap isn’t too big but that meaningful balance can be achieved in both modes.
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As a side note, is anyone’s interested to know how you make stats different from SP to MP, you can look at the kushan mothership .ship
if (getGameRubric(NewShipType) == GR_SINGLEPLAYER_SKIRMISH) or (getGameRubric(NewShipType) == GR_MULTIPLAYER) then
NewShipType.maxhealth=280000
else
NewShipType.maxhealth=210000
end
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Indeed, but there needs to be separation for game type as well.
The “compelling reason” is to have HW1RM play like HW1 campaign did, while having the units have separate balance that works against more HW2 style balance, with HW2 units having proper control and behavior, in MP.
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The problem with this of course is that there is a HUGE difference between HW1 and HW2. If HW1R is made to play like HW1C but in MP the race plays completely different then new players go from SP to MP and suddenly everything is different. This just to please the HW1 crowd with a more accurate to the original HW1 experience that new players does not necessarily care for and will get extremely frustrated with. This is not worth it to please HW1 vets. The idea is to get new players playing isn’t it? You need to have a smooth transition from SP to MP to accomplish this.
Mods however are the perfect vehicle to get HW1C feel for HW1R where possible. For everything else like formation it sounds like the devs really want to try and implement (after a lot of testing, check OP) so that will presumably come with time but the stat changes can so easily be implemented by modders right now. You’ve done great work to show it is in fact possible even if your work is more towards making a more HW2 based balance, the principle is the same. Even more importantly the devs can focus on getting MP balance right and work on getting formations and the like working if possible and not redoing HW1 that modders can do perhaps even faster.
I believe that having a mod that emulates as closely as possible HW1 stats on everything is the single best way to make everyone happy. HW1 vets that want their HW1 feel back can do that and it wont affect the MP balance. You can have HW1 tournaments using these mods to get exposure for that in MP.
More on topic though, should we still make seperate balance suggestion threads, post balance feedback in this thread or will balance threads be created by the devs regarding a specific balance issues like say, assault frigate, etc?
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Have you played Starcraft2 and seen how completely different the campaign is from the multiplayer? Poor argument, really.
Especially poor when it’s an argument for making the game worse.
You can do what you want with mods. There is no compelling reason not to. Not going to argue it further in this thread as this is not the place for it.
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Drone frigates weren’t like that in HW1. They were kind if a red headed step child - along with defense fighters and frigates. Their function has changed in HWR - for the better. They’re kind of similar to hive frigates from HWC in that regard and very much like flak frigates.
I was also going to mention Starcraft 2 as a successful example of singleplayer and multiplayer having separate playing experiences without consequence on player approval.
The SC2 singleplayer campaign gives the player access to units that aren’t available in multiplayer at all. Most of the units that are present in both SP and MP have different stats and/or abilities/upgrades and some have been revised to a completely different playstyle as multiplayer has gone through 4-5 years of balancing iterations while the SP side has been left untouched since release (to preserve its own balancing).
Despite this, there has never been any significant level of discontent among players on the basis that MP unit playstyles did not reflect SP and vice versa.
Granted, SC2 and HW:R are completely different engines and so it would be extremely asinine to assume that it would be an easy task on the programming side.
I am only trying to point out that the second argument of expectation gaps between SP and MP is not necessarily justifiable grounds to refuse to bring back HW1 formations. It’s not as if a destroyer is suddenly going to turn from a capital damage-dealer in singleplayer to a carrier with healing beams in multiplayer.
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They’ve already said they have separate unit stats, the difference that is harder to separate is core engine behaviour. It’s one thing to have a different list of units for multiplayer, but another to be running an entirely different game engine for each mode.
They also didn’t say they wouldn’t fix formations, it was only given as an example to highlight a potential element that might be damaging to singleplayer. In actuality I can’t see fixing formations being bad for singleplayer at all but there are no doubt other changes to be considered that would be.
I would like to say as well that so far their patch rate and priorities have been good, it’s great to hear they’re implementing a quicker updated balance mod as well since that will help a lot as most discussions currently are focused on stat changes, only a few on changing major gameplay features.
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I don’t think anyone disputes this. All I’m arguing is that expectation gaps between SP and MP should not be a valid factor in the decision as we have Starcraft 2 as an example of singleplayer and multiplayer unit playstyles differing and no significant level of player protest/disapproval about that has ever occurred.
Lol. When you quote it like that, it makes it look like I was responding directly to @Burly
Anyway, your assumption is actually wrong for the better. It is mindnumbingly easy to separate unit stats for SP and MP.
It is more difficult to separate actual mechanical changes, though wouldn’t be impossible if preserving a proper “HW2 Deathmatch” mode was desirable for those that think HW2 is perfect and shouldn’t be improved.
I don’t see why old methods can’t generally override the new one when the HW2 Deathmatch mode is selected, for example. That’d allow anything to be changed while still preserving that mode.
Yeah. Apologies if it seems that way, that was not my intention - my post was meant as a response to Burleson whilst acknowledging and giving you due credit for your SC2 comparison which I also agreed with.
Well, as Burleson said “most of the balance data is separated between MP and SP” so I think the implication here is that there is already a system in place which separates the two sets of stats but the core issue is that the revival of HW1 formation behavior would necessitate a much more comprehensive programming effort which goes beyond just tinkering with numbers and a couple of lines of code.
You have no idea 
HW1 and HW2 differ in virtually every substantive way when it comes to unit grouping and coordinated movement/actions.
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