#82

HW1 Deathmatch should be as close to possible to HW1C. I specifically said “HWRM” many times in that post.
HWRM should be HW 2.5. Not HW1. Not HW2. Not HW1 and HW2 dropped together with no other thought given. They are vastly different games and you can’t make them play exactly how they did in their original games yet be balanced against one another.

Don’t you think removing cost and having multiple researches at once would make things even more imbalanced, assuming their tech times and unit strengths were roughly on par?

I ask “don’t you think … ?”, but it’s not a matter of opinion; it’s a fact that’d show itself if it were that way. Go ahead and mod it and see. Make all the HW1 units copies of HW2 so they’re exactly effective, cut the research times by 30%, and remove their cost. HW2 would never win a game. So what then do you want, far weaker units and the same slower tech times where an equal battle can never be fought and a better player can always exploit the later timings with even stronger units earlier?
HW1s tech mechanics are overpowered in comparison to HW2s and the only reason HW1 races are so much weaker is down to their tech times, added costs, and individual units being less effective for each RU spent.

#83

Out of curiosity could you answer the following questions?

  1. Do you agree HW1 Remastered is not HW1?
  2. Do you think HW1’s gameplay got sacrificed to fit HW2?
  3. Did HW2 get changed in any meaningful way from its transition from HW2 to HW2 Remastered?
  4. Do you believe that both HW1 and HW2 should be changed at a core for this to work? Since you said both cannot maintain it while under current HWRM.

Also btw, right now HWRM is HW1R and HW1RM. Whatever happens to HW1 in multiplayer will most likely be translated into singleplayer. If that was not the case, then we would had had HW1’s gameplay in singleplayer from about the start.

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#84
  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Besides bugs, no, but it’s my understanding that the intent is to change it a bit.
  4. Yes. Both of them. Not one or the other. But subsystems and modules certainly shouldn’t be removed from HW2 and the research changed to be more like HW1 to balance it that way, because subsystems and modules were like the only good thing HW2 changed/added!

You’re still missing that there is a game mode that is HW2 and HW1 only races. These game modes can maintain HW1C and HW2 1.0.5 balance.
HWRM has to have things changed from both ends to make them work together. It should be HW 2.5

I would hope HW1 Deathmatch would be HW1C stats on the ships, with the additional formations and tactics things, so it’s closer to HW1 was but obviously it will never be exactly the same. But “close enough”, maybe even better since HW1C had some rather exploity things.

#85

Based on said answers we are fighting for the same thing. And yes I agree that the other gamemodes should have the old stuff while the combined should be changed.
I have had too many arguments with people over the same point but it being said differently, that’s why I asked the questions.

1 Like
#86

I seem to be one of the few people that want HW1 and HW2 races to be equally viable. Or probably what’s more true is that others see perceived problems, but are really short sighted on what effected “fixing” them would have.
HW1 races would be OP if they had free tech, faster tech, and all their units were as strong cost for cost and time for time as HW2 units. That’s not balance, that’s making HW1 OP. Right now, yes, they are very bad, but it would be very easy to make them as OP as they’re currently bad.

I’m not saying that what I did in my mod, giving them production modules, is the ONLY way to balance them. It certainly isn’t. But it was the easiest, since it made them more similar (while still being very different, I think!) I think a lot of people are fighting change and don’t really see how nicely that makes them play out. The more difficult ways to balance them have to be thought hard about as it’s much easier to make HW1 OP those ways or keep them UP, if that’s the road to go… There’s also probably some other good ideas I haven’t thought of. But what’s probably a terrible idea is trying to keep their tech roughly the same as HW1 yet somehow making them not overpowered or underpowered compared to HW2, sorry. I wish there were more creative ideas than “make them exactly like HW1 was. I’m just sure it will work, 'cause HW1 was the bestest most perfect game”. I preferred HW1 more as well, but this sort of ideology is just wrong and I would hope that you would change your mind after seeing something that plays better than either game did. I feel you’re just having trouble picturing it

But yes, in HW1 Deathmatch, sure keep their tech tree largely the same with research free. Don’t change them in any way that I said in HW1 Deathmatch.

#87

Thats where we got HW3. I do wish to play HW1 since you know that was kinda the purpose of HWR… Be able to play HW2 and HW1 with ne graphics…
Also I do wonder how HW2 would play out with HW1’s style of research. Just a thought.

#88

So you keep making the argument that the two tech tree types cannot exist in the same game and be balanced. I’m having a lot of trouble agreeing with this. Have you ever played a game that was set up this way? I can think of one that was and was for the most part, pretty balanced.

1 Like
#89

problem are not the tech trees but the mechanics behind building

as HW1 player you don’t have to worry about having an scout spying on you, you neither have to worry to spend resources on subsystems to be able to hyperspace jump of build a ship type without investing in equipoing your factory fleest with facilities modules, nor worrying about loosing a subsystem

HW2 players on the other hand can’t keep a secret, they need to spend 1000 RU just to be able to HSJ, they need to spend thousand of resources on subsystems just to be able to build as much as half of a HW1 fleets and they are vulnerable to subsystem attacks

As i see it there are only 3 ways to fix this:

  1. Remove subsystems from HW2 fleets (unbalanced, HW2 fleets would be OP)
  2. Nerf HW1 fleets (cheap cheesy solution)
  3. Add Subsystems to HW1 fleets (adds one missing strategic layer)

Now Sub Systems do not have to be implement on HW1 fleets like they are implemented on HW2 fleets, for examples, HW1 factory ships could automatically build the subsystems for free as soon as a related tech is researched. And if destroyed the subsystems could just be automatically restored for free after a set of time (just like engines and RU drop-off subsystems, but at full health)

this way HW1 fleets would give hints on the player strategy making scouting meaningful against HW1 fleets, and would also force players to defend their subsystems.

As for Hyperspace, i definitely think that either HW1 fleets should require to research HSJ tech, or make HW2 gravity generator subsystems a basic subsystem module (with basic i mean no need for research modules nor research technology)

#90

You’re right, I just have to worry about you seeing what I built (and know my tech path and jump right to a counter) spend more on jumping in the long run (and run into your always on hyperspace inhibitor) pay for everything I research, ( which takes longer class for class than your factories and usually only get 1 unit type per research) and losing a single, defenseless, slow, lightly armored, non hyperspace capable unit that is vulnerable to all types of attacks (not just bombers). And if I lose that thing, depending on the number of Aux ships and how far and into what I’m researching could cost me as much or more in both time and RU as any single module of yours. And I won’t get to pick up at the same speed I left off unless I was only 1 research ship deep when I lost it.

Both have pros and cons. The differences are what make life interesting.

This whole line of thought is just strange to me. I’m not going to claim to be one of the best, but I know I was before in two of the three HWs of this franchise. The fact that I get DESIMATED by the best of HW2 to me points out an underpoweredness of the HW1 races. However, I hold my own vs the average which leads me to believe that things aren’t as bad as many say. Check my post history and you’ll see I throttle back post after post of players looking to OP the HW1 race. That’s not what I want. But the preceived, wide spread opinion that we are underpowered, and the mind exersizes plus experience with remastered I have so far with MP lead me to believe that the races, with their playstyles, can be balanced without cutting what makes them unique.

This clash of styles has been done successfully before, and I think we can do it again.

3 Likes
#91

A notion came to me. What if the research ship acts as somewhat of a module system.

So, the idea is instead of building 6 sections to speed up research, each section unlocks a research tree. So if I want to unlock frigate research I build the frigate section, for fighters, the fighter section.

This will also allow for the idea of parallel research where each section for the research ship handles one research tree. Think about the HW Cataclysm research modules.

To balance it out make research ship more expensive or more time consuming to build. Maybe give research ship hyperdrive so it is not as vulnerable. Or make it so you can only destroy one section at a time, and buff each section’s hp.

Essentially you can see what HW1 factions are building, add modular component to HW1 and maybe give HW1 the ability to parallel research.

If properly balanced, it feels like a win win. Also, to put into a bit of a perspective this would mean a HW1 player can research ships faster, (if they buy the ship sections) but they can only research on thing at a time from a specific tree.

#92

That is an interesting concept. Can’t say I love it, but I don’t hate it.

The problems that come to mind. Right now, we have the ability to jump around our tech tree. You’re not seeing a variety of fighters, and next to no vets because of how frustrating they are to use. But many HW1 strats involved lightly leveling into a few chassis, and going heavy into one. I.E. doing a scout, light vet, assault frig, progression and then branching further into one of those depending on how the battle unfolded.

And we MUST research cap drive to build a resource controller. Our expansion capabilities are already greatly hindered by this. If in the early game I am force to build 2 different research ships for every opening except cap rushing in order to be able to timely expand my mining op, that would really limit my opening options, especially if you increase the cost of the ship as you walk up the chassis. I mean, how would you feel if you HAD to build a Frig Fac to build mobile refineries… as a Vaygr?

Jumping it would be OP. If I could jump my research ship, you would never find it.

But as a avid HW:C veteran, I do like the idea of mods allowing for parallel research, however, it’s not the same. With the HW:C module system, different frigs were available via different modules. engineering build rams, advanced engineering build hives, and weapons build multi beams, hanger build all fighter types (there was no vets, but a linking technology also from the hanger that gave you kind of a corvette), Processor (the HW:C controller/refinery) and carriers. All this pointing out that no mod locked me into a chassis, and ultimately all mods were needed for your fleet, (except for some off the wall strats). The difference in strategies was the order you built them. Most stats involved a 2 or 3 mod start, adding the 4th and 5th with-in the first 5 minutes. To duplicate that here, being able to and could afford to build multiple research ship types together, would upset a lot of HW2 players if we had the ability to put up full chassis type production that fast. Scout us out “lets see what he can build… Oh, anything” then you’re back in the same boat you’re trying to abandon except now I have parallel research.

All in all, I think I would prefer keeping the current HW1 system the way it is. Even chewing the idea of a research ship not taking a production line, or removing research cost for this, I still don’t love it enough to support the change.

But know that this post took me over an hour to write. It has me thinking that much. I may come back after I sleep on it with a different opinion. But it’s an uphill battle with me for sure to offload one of our biggest unique advantages as HW1 players. And no one should fool themselves into thinking I’m just trying to clutch an OP advantage. Effective recon was a huge part of both HW1 and HW:C game play. And just because your scientist and engineers screwed up doesn’t mean my intel team and espionage teams should be out of a job. You just need to get your spy’s up to par with us old school guys.

2 Likes
#93

I wish the current HW2 engine and stats would allow for more time to react. That is pretty much the root issue in most situations. You do not have proper time to react.

1 Like
#94

The problem is not the engine it is the exaggerated firepower of everything, that makes things die too fast

4 Likes
#95

Sorry by engine I ment the style of gameplay (the glass cannon style). I used the wrong word ;p.

1 Like
#96

Like I said, I can’t think of a game that has tech as completely different as HW1 and HW2 does. What game are you thinking of?

They are far more different than the tech/production differences of SC.

Like the time you get Carriers(lol), BC, Ultras are largely similar.
Larva is a really different mechanic than extra production buildings, except not really, since you just build an extra lair to basically have more production buildings if you have more resources than your macro can keep up with.
It’s way more similar than one side having a costly and slow to build building you can destroy to completely stop production on one side but not another.
Well yeah on Zerg you can destroy a greater spire to stop broodlord production, but… the building can be hidden, and you can have a backup one. And that’s not something just on the zerg side. You can kill Terrans fusion core to stop BC production, but again that just makes them similar to zerg and that’s not something that takes as long or is as costly to rebuild. Plus it’s not such a big deal to lose a fusion core and not be able to make BCs in SC2 than in HW.

SC is considered a good example of an assymetrical game. It feels very different, but at the core they’re quite similar. At the core of how HW1 and HW2 production and tech works, they’re more different than any game I can think of an balancing them will be difficult.
It’s not just that they’re different either… The way HW1s works to have 2 production queues, not require a building to produce units and just research to build at any carrier, to have it be completely hidden what they’re doing, to be able to hide research ships, etc etc etc is all just clearly better.
When I say better, I mean better from a strength standpoint, not game design, mind you.
The only reason the race is so much worse is that those research times are so slow and their units are so much worse. Tech and production wise they’re better, so if they had the same tech timings and strength of units they’re unarguably be OP.

Interesting idea. Problem is that shouldn’t destroyers require ions? So you need a frigate research module to get ion tech before you can make the capital module for the chasis to get destroyers. It would be rather confusing.

Could divide it up to strike/capital/non-combat research vessels instead of 6 sections, though.

Actually tempted to change my mod to that now, but it would take a bit of time that I don’t have. :frowning:

Isn’t it still sort of BS though that you can find the production module on a MS/carrier to destroy, but that capital research ship could be hidden anywhere on the map?
Production modules are just the one thing HW2 added and I don’t really see why they shouldn’t be used to better both the balance and gameplay.
It’s just really not fair that you can bomb a cap production facility to stop stuff from coming out but you can’t do that to HW1 races.

#98

You fell into my trap. I’m sorry.

Ever played a game called Homeworld:Cataclysm?

4 Likes
#99

I saw that one coming. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

1 Like
#100

Ok, Coming up for air for a minute.

Diff reports for your perusal, eyeball them to see what to expect regarding the current state of Kushan strikecraft. Many more ships have been touched but these are the ones that I believe pass muster with their roles and versus their counters and it is a small sample size to keep things manageable.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29530650/diff_reports_3-28.zip

How to read them: new on the left, old on the right, differences only are shown. Included are the attack styles for the Kushan strikecraft, point out anything dumb I might have missed.

3 Likes
Hey modders! Non modder here with a question
PSA: scole replied with some balance mod numbers
#101

Woohooo. It starts. @scole thank you

#102

Few questions. For you and/or modders.

Can these be explained?

Flyby_HW1Corvette_vs_Corvette
dogfight_multigun
frontal_hvette
Facetarget_HW1MGCorvette_vs_Frigate

If my assumptions are correct base on the name of these patterns as a description then this means different corvettes are going to act differently based on what they are attacking?

So If I have a mixed group of heavies, lights, and multis, together attacking a frigate, they will all act the same. But the moment I re-attack a group of fighters or corvettes they some will break off and some start doing flybys?

Also, Flyby patterns with lights and multis vs HW2 corvettes would have the same problem they currently do right? They would only be able to shoot on approach while the HW2 corvettes turrets remain trained on the HW1 corvettes as they fly by?

Can’t wait to test all of this. It may add an interesting dynamic in that light vettes are fighter augmentation and should be mixed-in with an open swarm, and heavy vettes revert back to the corvette we remember from HW1. Multis kind of a hybrid of the two.

Adding 11 seconds to the build time of the multi? That is a pretty big change! however, multis may become the new assault frigate with the increased armor and attack pattern. I could see mixing repair vettes with these as a ‘better vs fighter, ok vs frigate’ counterpart to the assault frigate.

Holly health on the heavy! These things just got a major buff all around. Fontal attack patterns on everything, 1100 health, we just got mini flack frigates.