Gaige Needs Help!

(Khrashing Phantom) #1

I’m not sure how to properly post a topic, but I don’t feel like I’m the only person with some concerns regarding Gaige when it comes to the Unofficial Community Patch. I’ll say 1st thanks to all of the awesome people working hard to make these patches happen. I’d imagine they take a lot of hard work and time to make happen. These patches have been some of the best community patches for any game in recent years, and I’m immensely grateful. They’ve effectively injected new life into an almost 6 year old game. Now back to business. Gaige is one of, if not my favorite character in Borderlands 2, but I feel like she needs some serious retooling to meet the true potential she has with her skills. I understand that some things can’t be changed for her from a patch standpoint, but I know that some of her skills can either be fixed or buffed. Because some skills are flat out misguided and some just need a little help to make her a better rounded character. My fellow Gaige players, if you agree feel free to give your input. If you don’t agree, please explain your position, because I may be misinformed, but I feel like Gaige is the most poorly constructed character in Borderlands 2, and the UCP has done some stuff to help her, but she still needs work.

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(So long, and thanks for all the fish!) #2

Might want to ask in here:

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(Khrashing Phantom) #3

Thank you very much. I’m still very new to the forums and I’m trying to get my footing. It’s just hard to watch these updates and continue to see Gaige getting left out of a lot of major buffs. I’ve replied on that thread as well. Do you suggestions or comments for her?

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(Breunion Boy) #4

While I will concede that she has some poor design behind her, I can’t say that further buffs are necessary.

She picks up guns and kills things, and one can make plenty of non-cookie cutter builds viable through UVHM. All the VHs get pushed into increasingly focused builds with increased OP levels, and yeah, she suffers from this a bit more than most, but the buffs already given to her through 3.1 were sufficient to add plenty of diversity up to that point (and excessive in some cases, the DOT buff makes LBT laughably broken)

I’m not sure at what point the changes would stop, she’s already a powerhouse. Is there a specific flaw you want to highlight?

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(Guajiro Pandoreño) #5

A lot of the patch edits to Gaige (all of them, really) seem to be meant to take the edge off play at OP8. When I play at OP3, she seems too strong in some regards, so I backed some off until she felt “right”, given my gameplay style and combat expectations.

I’m with @FunkJunkie though - do you have something in mind?

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(Khrashing Phantom) #6

The inherent flaw of Anarchy and survival. They don’t really match. Also some of her skills across all 3 trees are somewhat counter intuitive. A great example of this is Blood Soaked Shields.
LBT was buffed very well with most of the patches, but in this most recent patch he decreased the reload speed buff for Shock and Awwwww! which seemed kind of unnecessary. And as far a focusing in the OP levels I do agree, but she suffers much more than other in the OP levels and even regular UVHM to some extent.

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(Velocitas est Vita) #7

git gud

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(Breunion Boy) #8

The above gif not withstanding, I’d argue Anarchy is her best survival tool.

Killing things faster is the best way to stay alive and keep her best shield skills up, with the option for longer Discording when things go pear shaped.

BSS is the best shield skill in the game imo, the health loss is easily mitigated with a Moxxi weapon or transfusion grenade.

Yeah, some things are spread a little oddly in her trees, particularly some DT skills and I’d be open to seeing if Fancy Math could be worked into something that’d be worth considering over the nigh invulnerability in mobbing that BSS+UF offers.

I haven’t even looked at UCP 4 yet, on a little BL2 hiatus atm but kinda worry that too much change is against the spirit of OP8, which is to be challenging, even with optimized builds.

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(Guajiro Pandoreño) #9

Anarchy is an offensive skill… it’s not meant for survival (unless you rock it as @FunkJunkie says, and you kill everything before they get the upper hand). It’s like saying Impact (in the case of Axton) isn’t meant for survival… it’s not supposed to be? Maybe I don’t know what you mean.

I agree with @FunkJunkie - Blood Soaked Shields is the best shield skill in the game. What’s counterintuitive about it? That it comes with a cost (health), that it’s only activated with a kill, something else? It’s not even an “active” skill that you need to maintain… it just does its own thing during combat, so you don’t need to think about it unless you’re basing your combat around it.

They did, but they increased the reload speed for Smaller Lighter Faster too. If you are interested in deviating from their vision of the game as published in the UCP, it’s surprisingly easy to edit. I use one that really cherry picks bits and pieces out of all four patches because I have a different vision about some things.

What are you basing this on? I’m still not sure what you would want to change about Gaige… making her skills less counterintuitive, less misguided, and more rounded is a little vague. For example:

Tell us what skill you would fix/buff.

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(Khrashing Phantom) #10

@FunkJunkie @VaultHunter101 @klugepaul Sorry I wasn’t more specific earlier. I have limited internet usage time. I used Blood Soaked Shields as an example not because it’s a bad skill. IMO It’s the best shield skill in the game. My issue with it and this may have been fixed, is its ability to stack to a degree. It is very easy to get multi-kills with Gaige. Especially with higher Anarchy stacks. Multi-Kills to take large portions of your health which doesn’t make any since. This is particularly a problem if you have gone into FFYL. My personal ability aside FFYL loops are especially bad with Gaige if you kill multiple enemies to get up once you’ve been swamped. Your shield does stay healthy, but since all of her health regen is conditional, it can be hard to get her above health gate in the middle of combat. What I would do with Blood Soaked Shields is just subtract a flat health amount. Maybe 25-35% at 5/5. I feel like that’s a fair amount of health trade off for the best shield skill in the game. The other 2 skills that are counter intuitive to BSS are Fancy Mathematics and Unstoppable Force. Blood Soaked Shields is essentially a kill skill so there’s no need for her to have another kill skill that give her shield regen when she can regen 100% with a kill. The same situtation applies to Fancy Mathematics. Now I am aware that that isn’t the case if you don’t take Blood Soaked Shields, but she really is the only character that has to deal with counter intuitive skills to this magnitude. What I imagine the ultimate point of the UCP is to diversify builds and gear usage. I may be mistaken, but I feel like there shouldn’t be a reliance on any Moxxi weapons (The Grog Nozzle especially) for survival in UVHM and OP levels.

Outside of Blood Soaked Shields there are a few other skills in BFF and OC I would tweak not necessarily change. Maybe instead of Unstoppable Force boosting shield regen it could boost either swap speed or even reload speed. Cooking Up Trouble did get a buff. I pretty damn good one, but instead of your mag having to be full to use it maybe it can proc when Deathtrap is out. OC I would increase the chance for Typcast Iconoclast to proc to maybe 40% at 5/5. I say this because she only has one class mod that boosts that skill as far as I remember and it is DLC only. I would buff Smaller, Lighter, Faster to about 85% at 8/4. I will continue to say that Gaige is an awesome character and by no means weak or terrible. I would just like to see a continued increase in her abilities comparable to the fixes the other characters have gotten. Thank you guys for the input and for listening. If any of my suggestions seem unreasonable, or absurd let me know. Also if I am misinformed feel free to enlighten me. One thing I’ve gotten from communicating on these forums is that they are an awesome way to communicate and exchange ideas with other players on a game I really enjoy. Thanks again everyone.

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(Idiosyncratic Wannabe.) #11

Just something to note is that blood soaked shields health reduction is a percent of current health not max health. A flat 25-35% health reduction would be far worse than the 5% it currently reduces on kill. While it can be annoying to lose health when your shield was already full I still think it is a fair trade off for such a powerful defensive skill.

Fancy Mathematics shines in cases where blood soaked shields just ain’t useful. The fact it is always on makes it a perfect skill for raids and certain bosses that don’t have ads. BSS and FM are actually complimentary as they ensure Gaige has a good shield skill for all situations. I can see how in many ways it is a pity that FM is marginalized by BSS but if I were to pick holes in Gaiges skills FM would not be high on my list of what needs help. As for UF I’d say it is part of the key to keeping Gaige going between kills, the movement speed allows you to close the gap faster and the shield regen is brilliant for fighting dots and keeping your health safe between BSS procs.

Personally I’d say that BSS, FM and UF are one of the best synergies of defensive skills in BL2. They each play specific roles in allowing Gaige to keep her shield up in combat.

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(Khrashing Phantom) #12

Wow. That was very insightful. Thanks for some better clarification. I hadn’t considered that Fancy Mathematics would take up shield skill slack during raids, since it’s always on. Still not the greatest fan of the lowered health requirement, but that point is mute at the moment. I do understand that BSS and UF would have some synergy for fighting DOTs, because shield regen helps restore your shield between DOT ticks and down time. There’s nothing worse than catching a DOT and killing the last enemy in an area, but that’s a fairly niche scenario. The reason I still say they’re somewhat counter intuitive is because they’re both kill skills. If you kill an enemy you 100% refill your shield, so even if you do get a DOT you kill another enemy the DOT has to chew through your entire shield again, which is essentially the same as regen fighting back against it. That’s why I feel like they almost cancel each other out. It’s not because they’re both shield skills, it’s because they’re both kill skills that essentially do the same thing. My issue with BSS health penalty isn’t the penalty itself, it’s the skill ability to “stack” with multi-kills. This may have been fixed, but losing a little health at the gain of your whole shield isn’t the problem at all. The problem is getting a multi-kill, which is really easy with higher stacks of anarchy, and instantly losing 25%+ of your health. The per kill health penalty just seems unnecessary. A flat health reduction would eliminate this problem. I will continue to say Gaige is a fantastic character and easily one of my favorites. I love how much improvement she has already received over the past few patches, especially in LBT. Shock Gaige is a beast. I just would like to see some of her more counter intuitive skills change. Unfortunately those skills are her survival skills, which I don’t think would hurt her to improve.

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(Khrashing Phantom) #13

@Adabiviak Sorry I wasn’t more specific earlier. I have limited internet usage time. I used Blood Soaked Shields as an example not because it’s a bad skill. IMO It’s the best shield skill in the game. My issue with it and this may have been fixed, is its ability to stack to a degree. It is very easy to get multi-kills with Gaige. Especially with higher Anarchy stacks. Multi-Kills to take large portions of your health which doesn’t make any since. This is particularly a problem if you have gone into FFYL. My personal ability aside FFYL loops are especially bad with Gaige if you kill multiple enemies to get up once you’ve been swamped. Your shield does stay healthy, but since all of her health regen is conditional, it can be hard to get her above health gate in the middle of combat. What I would do with Blood Soaked Shields is just subtract a flat health amount. Maybe 25-35% at 5/5. I feel like that’s a fair amount of health trade off for the best shield skill in the game. The other 2 skills that are counter intuitive to BSS are Fancy Mathematics and Unstoppable Force. Blood Soaked Shields is essentially a kill skill so there’s no need for her to have another kill skill that give her shield regen when she can regen 100% with a kill. The same situtation applies to Fancy Mathematics. Now I am aware that that isn’t the case if you don’t take Blood Soaked Shields, but she really is the only character that has to deal with counter intuitive skills to this magnitude. What I imagine the ultimate point of the UCP is to diversify builds and gear usage. I may be mistaken, but I feel like there shouldn’t be a reliance on any Moxxi weapons (The Grog Nozzle especially) for survival in UVHM and OP levels.

Outside of Blood Soaked Shields there are a few other skills in BFF and OC I would tweak not necessarily change. Maybe instead of Unstoppable Force boosting shield regen it could boost either swap speed or even reload speed. Cooking Up Trouble did get a buff. I pretty damn good one, but instead of your mag having to be full to use it maybe it can proc when Deathtrap is out. OC I would increase the chance for Typcast Iconoclast to proc to maybe 40% at 5/5. I say this because she only has one class mod that boosts that skill as far as I remember and it is DLC only. I would buff Smaller, Lighter, Faster to about 85% at 8/4. I will continue to say that Gaige is an awesome character and by no means weak or terrible. I would just like to see a continued increase in her abilities comparable to the fixes the other characters have gotten. Thank you guys for the input and for listening. If any of my suggestions seem unreasonable, or absurd let me know. Also if I am misinformed feel free to enlighten me. One thing I’ve gotten from communicating on these forums is that they are an awesome way to communicate and exchange ideas with other players on a game I really enjoy. Thanks again everyone.

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(Idiosyncratic Wannabe.) #14

The fact they are both kill skills shouldn’t be a problem in mobbing scenarios as Gaige’s high damage should allow for easy chaining to keep them up the entire time. Neither skill is really meant for bosses(and by extension Raids), that role falls to FM.

While I agree it can be annoying to incur the BSS penalty multiple times for no shield gain, BSS’s penalty has a diminishing return. For instance it would require 12 kills to take Gaige from full health to below health gate, from 75% to below health gate it takes 7 Kills. To me this variance in penalty and it’s effect in forcing the player to keep an eye on their health is a fun mechanic. The penalty isn’t overly harsh and it makes for a dynamic interplay, to change the penalty to a flat reduction is in my opinion boring and too similar to the effects of a turtle shield or COM’s such as Zero’s Sniper com. I can see this can come down to a mere difference in preference but I urge you to reconsider if BSS’s penalty is really as harsh as a 25-35% reduction in max health.

As for your proposed ideas for Unstoppable Force. The constant regen on kill is not only excellent against dots but it is also Gaiges only form of immediate protection post a heavy hit. There are attacks such as rockets, shock snipers, barrels and some UBA attacks that will 1 hit your shield no matter the capacity. Without a skill that gives constant regen Gaige would be left exposed until she is able to get a kill. The lack of health regen skills makes it essential for Gaige to try and tank all her damage on her shield. UF is your best bet for staying alive post a heavy hit.

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(Khrashing Phantom) #15

Sorry for the long time to reply. I don’t have reliable internet access. Interesting point about Unstoppable Force. While it is a great skill to fight dots my original consensus stands. As a kill skill she doesn’t need it if you have Blood Soaked Shields simply because it is also a kill skill that essentially does the same thing. While regen can effectively fight dot ticks, giving a dot a fully recharged shield to chew through is basically the same effect. This might not be quite as true with lower capacity shields such as The Sham or The Bee, but the point remains the same. I also don’t see the problem with just a flat health penalty instead of a per kill percentage based one for Blood Soaked shields. Boring or not I’d like to see Gaige as a fully realized shield tanking character, which would continue to make her unique in this game. I said the flat penalty should be so high because she does have the ability to health stack some with relics and Potent as a Pony. I feel like boosting her survival skills and some of her other DPS skills would help create more diverse builds with her. Because in the end it seems like the primary purpose of the skill changes in the UCP is to create more diversity for each character. I feel like with all the UCPs that have occurred Gaige has gotten the least love.

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(Khrashing Phantom) #16

I’m continuing this thread, because I’m a firm believer in “the squeaky wheel gets greased”.
I will reiterate that Shadowevil and friends have done a phenomenal job on the UCP and I’m massively appreciative of all the hard work they have done. This has been by far one of the greatest community experiences I’ve ever seen. I feel like maybe some of the Gaige fixes may have just been from the perspective of someone who doesn’t really play Gaige that often or have been playing specific Gaige builds at end game for a while. She’s an awesome and diverse character, and yet I feel like she still isn’t getting the things she needs to make her as diverse and powerful as her fellow vault hunters. So my suggestions to improve Gaige by tree then, skill. I do realize some of the request may be impossible from a programming stand point so I’ll try to seperate realistic from fantasy.

Best Friends Forever
Buck Up : The shield capacity is a great idea, but if it is possible maybe a Res effect and Buck and revive a downed player, since Deathtrap already tries to restore people in FFYL’s shield.

Fancy Mathematics: Remove the “lower your health” stipulation and make it a flat rate.

Potent as a Pony: Increase the health to 25-30% at 5/5 and Deathtrap health at 20-25%. Gaige plays best up close and health stacking helps survival, especially in higher levels.

Explosive Clap: Gives Gaige an additional 20% grenade damage.

Made of Sterner Stuff: I am aware it got buffed and it’s way better than it was before, but I would have buffed it up to 25-30% at 5/5. This would really help Deathtrap stay alive. If it is possible I would remove the melee damage and give Deathtrap and Gaige either elemental resistance or elemental effect duration decrease similar to Forbearance on Axton.

20% Cooler: I would just increase the cool down to maybe 40-50% at 5/5. Some may think that’s excessive, but Deathtrap has the longest cool down of any other action skill in the game and this is a tier 5 skill.

Little Big Trouble
Strength of 5 Gorillas: I would remove the gun damage bonus and give Deathtrap 5% per point melee damage and 4% per point in damage reduction for Deathtrap.

Shock Storm: Increase the damage and area of effect

Shock and “AAAGGGGHHH!”: Reinstate the additional 25% reload speed increase. It wasn’t broken.

Interspersed Outburst: Kinda tricky. I’m not sure of the mechanics of the skill, but if it was possible I’s switch it from slag damage to just flat elemental damage. If not increase the slag chance and damage

Ordered Chaos
Smaller, Lighter, Faster: This should be at least 35% at 5/5 skill points.

Preshrunk Cyberpunk: Increase Accuracy 15% per skill point as well

Annoyed Android: Increase Gaige’s movement speed by 35% as well as Deathtrap

Typecast Iconoclast: Increase to 8% chance per skill point

Rational Anarchist: Gain 40 Anarchy stacks instead of 25

Death from Above: Increase area of effect and damage. If possible switch the element from exploisve damage to shock damage.

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(Jones) #17

Sorry to necro but… the community patch made her much to OP. I play at OP8 without BAR always, and she was just ridiculous with the patch. All the added passives she didn’t need for one. She has no weapon swap speed buffs for a reason. Getting 250% swap speed made it way too easy to slag with pimp and slagga then switch back to main. Not to mention the addition of the Flayer and the Veruc consuming only one ammo. Community patch for Gaige for me felt like i had a BAR with all 50% buffs or something.

She just has too many skills that either do next to nothing or make deathtrap worse. So in that respect i agree to an extent that she was poorly designed. But once you realize anarchy is her real action skill and DT is there for aggro, the more fun she becomes imo.

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(Guajiro Pandoreño) #18

Just uncheck the bits you don’t want and balance her as you see fit.

Do tell.

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(Jones) #19

Pretty much every one of DT’s skills that do crap damage that take him away from doing his main form of DPS which is melee. Which is most of them. I’m guessing that’s why they added all the passives to those skills on the patch.

She is already strong enough. The patch is cool and all but I think of how ppl complained about the BAR system and how it made everyone’s game uneven. It couldn’t be anymore uneven if everyone is taking different changes in the patch. There is enough different class mods and weapons in this game to vary builds. I just don’t see a difference from the patch and modding. I really don’t

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(Guajiro Pandoreño) #20

In which playthrough? Even at OP3, The Stare can toast most chumps in one burn (and some bigger enemies if you slag/de-shield them first). In Normal mode, when you can first get your hands on it, it’s fine. It’s also impossible for it to miss (even through walls), where his melee attacks can easily miss moving enemies… not bad for a single point. If you’re going into Loader territory, I’d remove it. The stock UCP (which seems to be focused on taking the edge off OP8 gameplay) makes it able to drop larger targets on its own.

One Two Boom is the same thing, but it’s up to you to trigger it (the orb won’t do any damage on its own), and after having played with it extensively now, I find Deathtrap is quite good at throwing it at the right time (it’s really well made: the “long” spin up time gives you time to hear it and prepare to get the shot, and while it’s traveling, it makes a noise that you can track in case you didn’t see him toss it). Also not bad for a single point, but if you want Deathtrap to do his own work, I’d skip this.

Sharing is Caring is as overpowered as you want, depending on what shield you throw on him. A Flame of the Firehawk might be the most brutal (as it’ll just roast enemies as he flies around them), followed by the Love Thumper (especially with Robot Rampage).

Annoyed Android is about the only one I pass on (which is fine: I have plenty of other skills I’d rather put points in in that tree). His other offensive skills are all melee enhancements.

I don’t remember that, but I may have missed it: it’s easy enough to turn off to level the playing field for whoever cares (and for the rest of us, it’s quite nice), so I’m not sure what the actual complaint was.

Technically I don’t think there is a difference, but the same question stands: who cares? If there was competitive multiplayer, maybe, but for single-player where we’re all running around in our own sandboxes, I’m not sure why someone would be concerned about how someone else plays their game.

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