Gaige Needs Help!


(Jones) #21

I play on OP8. Seems to me, any of his offensive skills take away from his time to melee. I don’t see how they could possibly be worth it. Especially if you are using sharing is caring with the Hide. I’d never use love thumper unless i didn’t want to actually play and just hung out by the fast travel or something. When i said that i meant the skills that change his attack. Basically one two boom and the stare. Not sharing is caring or the skills that increase his melee dmg.

Yeah “own sandbox” so i guess if you play by yourself constantly, don’t share builds with friends, don’t do time trials, or struggle with the game as is… then the community patch is for you. I for one wouldn’t want to have a different game than everyone else. Especially a game meant to play with friends

To each his own as they say.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #22

All his offensive skills take turns firing, regardless of level. At OP8, where everything has highly diminishing returns, his skills are no exception; melee is just the one that has the least diminished returns. In Normal and into True, they’re all quite good (and with some help from me slagging and debuffing, they can work into the early OP levels).


(Is this thing on?) #23

Is it a strict rotation, or is it random?


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #24

I haven’t checked (I also realize I forgot Explosive Clap, which I do think falls off in effectiveness sooner to @Raptchur’s point). Now I’m curious if it’s a flat rotation during combat, or if he’s got his own version of vaulthunter.exe.

I’ll do a quick check here… should be easy to tell.

edit - not that easy, but I think I get it: robot husbandry 101

I think it’s random. The available specials are picked in a random order upon summon. He will fire his specials constantly as long as they aren’t on cooldown. I’m playing with The Stare, Robot Rampage, and Explosive Clap, and the average time between them firing as the combat goes lets one of them cool off right before he needs it. If he kills the enemies super quickly with them, he’ll start swinging normal melee until one cools back down and is available for use. But, as one becomes available, he’ll use it, so this initial random sequence is “preserved”.

In between engagements (or if enough time goes where more than one cools off), he’ll randomly set the next order, but you see how whatever sequence he fires will be preserved as long as the combat is constant enough.

You can use this to your advantage: if you know he’s going to fire Explosive Clap or Robot Rampage next, you can help keep the enemy within his attack range (usually by body blocking them). The Stare can’t miss, so this just gives you time to anticipate the next shot.

Also (sort of unrelated, but on the topic of Deathtrap behavior): you can target a specific enemy if you summon Deathtrap with the enemy under your crosshairs: he’ll ignore all the others, even if they’re closer, and go for this one first. It’s a great way to test his skills in combat (select only one to make sure he’s only using that, target an enemy, and summon him). It’s how I got the knack for One Two Boom (though after that, the vagaries of combat make it difficult to control the variables, but the first summon works like this).

For the record: no UCP here, and The Stare and Explosive Clap were killing Spiderants up to Brawlers and Sluggers with just an application of slag. Those little Spiderlings, when they go into leap attack mode and won’t let you near them? The Stare can’t miss, and can easily kill them. I’m sure it doesn’t work this well at OP8, but I don’t otherwise get the disdain for those skills.

…going to test my other Mechromancer with different specials to confirm some things.

2nd edit: I think One Two Boom might make this difficult, as it’s spin up time is so long, the other specials will cool down and be re-sequenced whenever it’s fired, making them much less predictable. The Stare, Explosive Clap, and Robot Rampage all fire very quickly. We’ll see!

3rd edit: One Two Boom has a longer cooldown than the other skills, which makes it tricky if not impossible to track it in a sequence like this (since they can come and go more than once while One Two Boom is still cooling down). The Stare, for example, can fire twice before One Two Boom comes up again. Still, this seems to predict the behavior pretty well if anyone’s down for some peer review.

4th edit: this seems like something worth looking at in detail and presenting in a video. It’s springtime in California though, and the sun keeps calling me outside, so don’t hold your breath. :stuck_out_tongue:


(Khrashing Phantom) #25

What I’m noticing about Gaige and what I’ve been saying about her since the first community patch was released is there is very little effort being put toward her or Deathtrap’s survival skills, and also not really addressing some of her actual damage formulas outside of Anarchy. I’ve noticed she gets some of the same treatment from the community as Sal in some regards. Because she has the ability to crank up flat gun damage buff to frankly obnoxious levels there seems to be a level of reservation in buffing ANYTHING surrounding damage related or otherwise. My suggestions above is just the tip of the iceberg, on what I feel like would balance her better as a character and create better synergy with her action skill, which everyone could agree is fairly poorly designed. (I Love Deathtrap so much, but he’s derpy as hell!) Lol. Since the community patch can’t really change his behavior we can change how Gaige reacts to his activation and the benefits the player receives as a result of him.

@Raptchur I don’t think the UCP made her overpowered in the least bit to be honest she is somewhat under serviced. I personally hate the term “overpowered” in a game that isn’t PvP, but that a different discussion entirely. Her getting the substantial swap speed mechanic is actually not that bad considering it’s tied to a penalty based capstone. Her not having swap speed buffs wasn’t because it would make her “overpowered” she wasn’t given swap speed buff, because like Maya she has a skill that has the potential to slag enemies regardless of the type of weapon she uses (Interspersed Outburst). Unfortunately the skill doesn’t work properly and wasn’t fixed so she was just stuck with yet another crumby skill. As a matter of fact she was the only character to my knowledge to receive a nerf in the most recent verison of the UPC 4.0 or later I believe. They decreased the reload bonus of “Shock and Aaagggghhh” to 10% which didn’t seem necessary. I strongly disagree that Anarchy is her action skill, and Deathtrap is just aggro. I know you didn’t mean that literally, but that seems to be the general consensus for him that I’ve been lobbying against for some time. The reason Deathtrap is considered aggro at this point is reaction of our community to his poor design, not because of his inherent design itself. Combine that with the inherent design flaws of Gaige herself, a character through one skill is supposed to play hardcore and up close, but doesn’t have the survival or initial power to do so, and you have one big beautiful mess of a character that I love dearly. I’m curious what builds do you run with Gaige? Also have you ever heard of or tried the Ultimate Badass Vault Hunter Challenge? Because I completely agree with some of the passives she received from the UPC being completely unnecessary, but I disagree with her being “overpowered”. Either way thanks for adding to the discussion. I’ve had a really hard time getting people’s attention when it comes to her , and with Borderlands 2.5 in the works I worry about her and Sal the most. Especially with what feels like the general community feels about them. (At least from my experience).

@Adabiviak Wow I’ve never been able to figure out whether Deathtraps other attacks are randomized or in sequence! Thanks for clarifying that for us. Also I knew you could get him to target enemies somewhat, by setting your crosshairs on them when you deploy him ,but it’s just getting him to cooperate throughout the rest of the battle is the struggle I’ve been having. Lol. Awesome input as usual from you. Thanks again.

As far as Deathtrap I don’t believe there’s any way to change his behavior from the UPC stand point, but I’d be curious to see whether or not there’s a way to get Gaige some passive benefits while he’s active similar to Axton with Battlefront. This next set of suggestions I feel like are probably impossible, but if the UPC could be altered in this way it would radically change the way people play Gaige, especially when it come to Deathtrap. Similar to my post above I’m going to go tree then respective skills.

Best Friends Forever
Upshot Robot: I would switch the position of this skill and make it her capstone. So “Sharing is Caring” would be in place of Upshot robot and Upshot Robot would be the capstone for this tree. I would alter what bonuses Deathtrap and Gaige receive during Upshot Robot. I’d give Deathtrap 3-4 seconds duration per kill/ 5% stackable Melee damage per kill for him/ 0.5 % Accuracy per kill for Gaige per kill or 5% Melee damage for Gaige/ 1.25% Damage Reduction per kill for Deathtrap/2.0% flat health regen for Deathtrap. I’d add an additional 30-45 seconds to his cool down as a penalty of this skill and all of these benefits disappear when Deathtrap is either killed or is on cool down. And just for fun I’d change the name to “Terminator X” caption “He talks with his hands” I wonder who will get the reference.

Little Big Trouble
Wires Don’t Talk: I would swap this skill and “Make it Sparkle” and make “Wires Don’t Talk” her Capstone. With “Wires Don’t Talk” I’d, controversially, make it increase all shock and electrocute damage to 65% flat. Also add an additional 40% shock duration to enemies and an 85% shock resistance for Gaige.
Make it Sparkle: Since this skill would be swapped with “Wires Don’t Talk” it would be a 5 point skill. I’d give Deathtrap 7-8% elemental damage per point, 10% elemental chance per point, and 5-6% elemental resistance per point. I’m comfortable with those numbers since no com would boost this skill. Conversely I’d make this skill give Gaige 3% elemental status effect heals you per point.

Ordered Chaos
With Claws: I would completely rename and rework this skill entirely. I would rename it “Anarchy Pro”. I’d change the gun damage bonus from 1.75% to 0.5% and the Accuracy penalty to 0.25%. I’d add 0.4% Weapons Swap Speed, 0.5% reload speed. I’d also add a 0.2% fire rate and Magazine Size while Deathtrap is active. The drawback I’d have for this skill is that you can now have negative Anarchy stacks up to 650. This means if you prematurely reload while you have no stacks you get a -1 Anarchy stack. Conversely you can use “Discord” with no stacks and gain negative stacks. Negative Anarchy stacks -0.75% gun damage per stack.

Discord: I’d make this a 2 point skill that’s only unlocked if you have “Anarchy Pro” mentioned above. I’d rename it “Discord Pro” and retool it as well. “Discord Pro” saves you up to 50 stacks of Anarchy after dying. I’d give Gaige 4% Health Regen per second, 3.0 ammo regen per second, 20% Damage Resistance, and 40% Movement speed while Discord Pro is active. The drawback of “Discord Pro” is that it increases Negative Anarchy stack effects. -1.5% Gun Damage per stack, -0.5% weapon swap speed per stack, and -1.0 reload speed per stack. These are the primary “pie in the sky” changes I would make for Gaige at this point. I’d imagine it would be impossible to implement, but I’d still like to see how these changes plus the ones I mention in some of my original posts would change how player play as and think about Gaige. Because like I said before she seems to get no love from the modding community and I still fear for her and Sal in the Borderlands 2.5 mod. She’s such an awesome character, and I feel like she has never really gotten her just dues. Now I still commemorate the fantastic individuals who take precious time out of their lives to create these mods. They are the true community badasses so I have no ill feelings there. I just think Gaige and Sal sort of have a stigma surrounding them Sal especially. I just feel like Gaige kinda get pushed to the back end, which she doesn’t deserve, and I think her poorly built skills are the reason she get so little love. I’m curious to see how many players actually play as her as their main character.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #26

What doesn’t work right about it?

I think it’s because many of the reactions are from players parked at OP8 with an expectation that he’ll somehow still be a “fire and forget” action.

That’s my first draft - when time permits, I would like to give it a serious look. If nobody is using The Stare, Explosive Clap, One Two Boom, or Robot Rampage (his active specials), who cares? Not that I won’t do it (I don’t think anyone uses the WTF shield, but even without the UCP, that shield is awesome), but it may be a bit.

:raised_hand:
I have two that I main (one Bandit allegiance, the other Bandit). Really, I have 8 mains, one per manufacturer, but they all get played equally, as I let RNG decide whom I will play.


(Jones) #27

I don’t have any problem surviving with her with or without the patch. Just like every other character, use moxxi weapons. I mostly use a slag transfusion grenade with her anyway. Unless i’m running predominately Hail, Kitten, or Heartbreaker. ( which is my current build. shock kitten build using the black hole. it’s quite fun) then i use a low level slag Bouncing Bonny. Every Gaige should have a set of Hails on her at least.

And when i say OP, i’m referring to the community patch version as compared to vanilla. And the penalty you are talking about for With Claws is an optional penalty. And it’s very easy to get down to, at least for me because i almost always take Nth Degree. And i like Interspersed Outburst but it’s hard to consider that a built in slag skill. Unless you’re running a shock build, it’s basically impossible to reach. Plus it doesn’t work very well with high fire rate guns imo. I’m guessing you run a Shock/DT build mainly?

As for DT… when i’m just running around mobbing for fun, I rarely use him. I’m not saying he isn’t good or useful. I just think he can be annoying when playing with others. So I’ve mostly played without him. It’s gotten to a point where I’ve forgotten about him completely at times unless i really need him. Gaige is by far my main. I’ve had 5+ different Gaiges at OP8 on 360, PC, and PS4. But it’s because she fits my play style… Fast, high dmg, tanky up close and personal. Not because of robots.


(Khrashing Phantom) #28

@Adabiviak

The slag aspect doesn’t apply to the actual bullet, but instead creates slag splash, and the damage of stacking the skill just increases slag damage not chance. So it doesn’t slag reliably. As far as Deathtrap being fire and forget, I don’t believe that’s the expectation more so than just having some sort of utility for deploying him. People say the same thing about Axton’s turret, but Axton himself gets specific benefits from the having the turret out or deploying it. I’d like the to be an asset to Gaige and not a replacement as far as damage goes. I care that so many of Gaige skills are tied to Deathtrap and NO ONE is using them that’s a problem. I really can’t think of any other character that has this problem. There are 8 different skills that Gaige has that “No one uses” so that’s about 22% of her total skills. All I’m trying to get across is that she is under serviced as a character when it comes to the UCP and the community at large. I do remember you saying you do run a lot of allegiance builds which is pretty damn cool. I love the Bandit allegiance one for Gaige. It really opened my eyes to even more ways to play her. I’m just afraid that Gaige has kinda gone the route of Sal within the community. People only try maybe a few meta builds with her and assume there’s not real play outside of them. The only way to continue to discover and change is to test and address inadequacies with the characters. Deathtrap isn’t supposed to be fire and forget IMO, but he should still be beneficial beyond aggro, especially in the higher levels since so many of Gaige’s skills and 2 capstones are tied to him.

@Raptchur

That’s exactly my problem. I don’t believe any character, even Gaige should HAVE to use Moxxi weapons for survival. I’d like to just see survival skills improve so we can eliminate the NEED for them. The same goes with transfusion grenades as well. No don’t get me wrong, I LOVE using the Hail especially with Gaige, but there are way too many weapons in this game to limit anyone to just a select few unique. I believe a good build can be made better with the use of unique weapons, not possible. So no I Strongly disagree with the idea that every Gaige should have a set of Hails. As far as Deathtrap goes I do agree he can be pretty annoying when you’re playing Coop lol. But I’d still like to see some more benefits for having him during combat. There really isn’t any other character that has the problem of having what some might argue as a useless or cumbersome action skill.

Not exactly is more Shock/Anarchy, but I do incorporate some Deathtrap skills every now and again. I go all the way down to Nth Degree as well. I’d like to run more Deathtrap, but he’s problematic. Gaige has been my main since I’ve started playing in 2013. She was the 1st character I got to OP8 with and she’s the 1st character I beat all of the main DLC quests with. I also do the most character testing with her since the UCP came out to put the word out about what she needs. I fear my requests, discoveries, and concerns will continue to go unnoticed, but I will continue to lobby for her to get more improvements as newer versions of not just the patch, but mods come out, because Gaige is one of, if not my favorite characters in the game and she just isn’t getting the attention she needs or deserves. As far as Moxxi dependency goes and even using different builds try out the Ultimate Badass Vault Hunter Challenge or the Badass Vault Hunter Challenge. It might help you develop some more builds or create better weapon diversity for you.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #29

Are you sure? The skill says it buffs slag chance, and when I’m packing something that buffs it to 10 or 11 points, it slags pretty much every time (where I can tell when I’m not wearing a COM that puts it to that value because it slags less often. I enjoy sniping with Gaige, and trying to catch enemies in the tiny window between her kill skill wearing off from the last shot and Interspersed Outburst stacks coming back for another slag application.

On the topic of playing non-traditional ways, sniping with Gaige and a non-UCP-enhanced Volcano, and a little Anarchy is fun because of the cadence of Interspersed Outburst: there’s a sliver of time between when your kill skills are about to run out and IO stacking back all the way. I want Evil Enchantress to buff the fire DoT, but I also want ‘free’ slag from IO.


(Is this thing on?) #30

This isn’t quite right. IO creates a digistructed slag nova if a bullet hits something. Everything hit by that gets slagged. And so it goes. There’s a breakdown in this post:

It won’t work if you don’t take the time to build stacks into account, but that’s an issue with any stack-based skill.


(Jones) #31

Tbh i use the Hail and Kitten on Gaige because i just love to use them. Dmg wise. The healing aspect is just a bonus. Everyone hates on it, but i actually do a lot of my healing with With Claws… It fits my play style perfectly and hers. You are normally going to be pretty close to enemies so slash them and get hp back. One slash is usually enough to get over half health. I don’t understand where you think her health problems are different than anyone elses? Other than Maya and maybe Krieg. Gaige is straight up designed to rely on her shield. She has many skills that state as much. Most notably BSS. Not to mention 2 skills that have elemental resistance (Myelin and MoSS). She is meant to tank with shield.

And as for DT being weak for an action skill, I’ll take the aggro he draws over Krieg’s action skill in most builds for him. I’m fine if there’s no DT at all when you give me skills like Anarchy and Close Enough. You say Maya, i think Phaselock. You say Zer0, i think Deception. You say Gaige, i think Anarchy…


(Khrashing Phantom) #32

@VaultHunter101 I see. Thanks for clarifying. IO is technically a good slagging tool on paper, but it can be fairly cumbersome in practice. The digistructed slag explosion nova from the bullet doesn’t always reliably slag enemies even with 10/5 in the skill in all 5 stacks active. This is espcially true with moving targets (skags, surveyors, psychos, ect) Maybe it’s just the way the explosion procs, but I’ve been in situations where the enemy essentially outruns the explosion. But thanks for breaking down the way the skill procs. I definitely miss spoke for thanks for correcting me. I still contend that this isn’t a reliable enough slag skill to offset the fact that Gaige without the UCP has no swap speed skills, and even with the UCP only has 1 swap speed skill connected to her capstone. I feel like a skill of this caliber should be further up the tree or refined to make it worth being so deep in the LBT tree. How I would fix it is maybe expand the size of the digistructed slag nova and increase the slag chance and maybe it’s damage. I’d either do that or make it like Zero’s Kill Confirmed in the UCP and stack all 5 stacks instantly when you ADS. Either way thanks again for your input and the information. I’m always looking for ways to make and play a better Gaige.

@Adabiviak Sorry I miss spoke. VaultHunter101 corrected me about how IO actually works. I do still contend that it isn’t a very reliable slagging tool in some cases. I find that some enemies can outrun the digistructed slag nova (Surveyors, stalkers, skags, psychos, ect) I love seeing someone who also uses Sniper Gaige. It’s a ton of fun especially with either The Volcano or The Longbow. Especially the Longbow she can be devistating with that thing. This is why I appreciate your input in my posts. You seem to be one of the few players I’ve come across who play Gaige outside of Anarchy/Twister builds or Anarchy/Jakobs shotgun builds. There are so many more possibilities with her and I think she has been pigeon held, by Youtube meta builds and I’m finding fewer and fewer people are putting are either sharing or exploring different ways to play her. I saw an opportunity to open these possibilities with the UCP, but she really hasn’t been getting much love in that department, which makes me really worry about her in the Borderlands 2.5 version they’ve been working on.

@Raptchur I do agree With Claws can be an effective healing tool, and I’m glad it received a buff from the UCP. But it is a capstone, and is health dependent which both seem unnecessary. Her health problems are much different from everyone else. Maya and Kreig are 2 good examples of characters who can health stack extremely well and stay healthy during combat with relative ease. Gaige has very few health skills as is and they are all circumstantial except Potent as a Pony and that only gives you 20% more health and it’s a tier 3 skill. You are correct Gaige is supposed to be a shield tanking character, but her skill values don’t really reflect that unique aspect to her. I still say that UF and BSS are counter intuitive, but that’s another discussion for another time. I don’t see any problem with buffing her survival or buffing her shield tanking ability, especially since most of her survival skills come at a cost. I’m not sure how Krieg’s action skill really plays into this discussion, but I think I have an idea of what you’re driving at. You definitely can play Krieg without ever touching his action skill (I often do), but the stark difference is Krieg is balanced enough across his 3 skill trees to never use his action skill. Also his action skill doesn’t consume the spot for 2 capstone and almost 22% of all of his skills, not to mention you can still use said skills and they’re still useful without his action skill. Gaige is literally the only character with this problem at this point. But like I’d been saying for quite some time now I feel like no one either seems to notice or cares. Either way I will still lobby for some more Gaige reform in the forums and maybe some things will shake loose in the later mods and UCP renditions. I would like to thank you though for lending a listening ear. I’m curious what would you change, if anything as far as any character’s skills go? Buffs or retooling wise, not necessarily nerfs?


(Is this thing on?) #33

I think if the digisplosion/nova was virtually instantaneous it would be better. It does slag pretty well 100% on stationary or slow enemies, but it often only slags the target (unlike Maya’s phaselock augmentation which slags everything in range.)

I generally don’t worry about weapon swap speed though - at level 72 Gaige can crank out enough damage to not worry too much. Even if you only hit every other target with IO slag, you can still burn through most mobs pretty easily, Now, if you’re talking OP levels I have no idea - not sure that’s for me.


(Khrashing Phantom) #34

OP levels are exactly what I’m talking about. Lol. IO was one of the 1st skills to really fall off for me personally, and you’d be hard pressed to find too many characters that DON’T have to slag in the OP levels. Instantaneous novas would help, or even increasing the nova radius, or even maybe changing how it procs, because you do still have to stack this skill for it to be it’s most effective. Swap speed is imperative in OP levels and no other character has a real problems with it except Gaige and Maya, and Maya has 2 Capstones that have an undisputed opportunity to reliable slag her opponents while Gaige only has 1 skill that does so. Even if the UPC added it to her With Claws skill it’s still a Capstone for swap speed which no other character has.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #35

:roll_eyes: :laughing:

Yeah, I have no expectation that it slag anything but the target… that others might get caught in the splash is just a bonus for me.

If you’re so inclined, use the UCP to make Interspersed Outburst do what you want. Faster stacks? More chance per stack? Bigger slag radius? Faster weapon swap speed per stack? Digisplosion is a one-hit raid boss killer? Swap/add shock damage to the slag?


(Khrashing Phantom) #36

@Adabiviak

I don’t have a P.C to play this game on currently, and I don’t really know how to mod.

I kinda feel like you’re just making fun of me at this point although I could be misinterpreting your statement.
If I come across like I’m nitpicking or being ungrateful for all the work the community at large has done with the UCP I truly apologize. The individuals who have taken the time out of their lives to put the UCP together are absolutely badass for doing so. I’m fully aware that they are doing this

for the love of this game. So I would never want to under mind that effort. The UCP has just injected so much new life into this game it’s unreal. Even though I currently can’t enjoy it like everyone else, I’m only aiming to help with the UPC by doing my own share of testing and gathering data to exchange here with those who do have the modding capabilities and prowess. But I promise I’m not trying to nitpick just share my opinions, data, and findings.

That’s actually a really cool idea. I thought about something like that for Death From Above with switching the explosive damage to shock damage. I think Athena from The Pre-Sequel had a skill like that and the 1st thing I thought of is how awesome that would be for Gaige to have.

Anyway maybe I’m getting a little ahead of myself with these suggestions. I’m just trying to put the word out about some ideas I’ve been tinkering with and trying to just add a little more diversity to how Gaige is viewed and played. Just curious do you do any modding at all? Also do you think someone currently playing on console should have any say so in what happens in the UCP?

I don’t understand this one? Did I say something wrong?


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #37

No insult intended - that’s just hyperbole to demonstrate one end of the range of what’s capable with the UCP. If you’re not on PC, this is irrelevant anyway.

Nothing wrong and no offense intended: it’s not aimed at you; I’m agreeing with you about Gaige (all of them at some level) being pigeonholed into a select few builds by the Youtube community. My enjoyment of the game would be substantially less if I used these for anything more than ideas for directions of my own research about game mechanics.