Game Balance and Mayhem 2.0 (Hotfix thread derailment)

Here’s the thing, what do designers do if they can’t nerf the overpreforming stuff but still need to make challanging content? They design said content around the most powerful weapons so that it stays challanging. This is what happened in BL2 with all of the raidbosses, especially Verocious the invincible as he was specifically designed to see if GB could create a raid boss the community couldn’t defeat within a day.

However, doing this will bury the non-meta weapons(as well as action skills and pets) even more.

The idea that PVE games don’t need balancing is honestly baffling. If you dont want to be challenged, there are 3 lesser Mayhem levels, normal mode, and an easy mode that you can obliterate all who stand before you in. You shouldn’t be forced to use weak guns in order to have a challenge on a mode that was specifically advertised as being for optimized builds only! The fact that the Lob can get me through two slaughtershaft rounds with a total of 10% gun damage in my build(wich is 100% utility and defense) , a shocerator(not even using the clone mind you) COM, and an icebreaker relic(the only source of damage in the build)… thats stupid. Currently the only reason not to run the Lob is that it has a short range, but for most bosses thats not an issue as you are forced into an arena where you have to be in close range.

If you want mindless fun, play on non-mayhem normal mode. Dont force the idea that the game should be laughably easy even on the hardest difficulty on everyone else.

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That is fair, I have no idea how these buffs will measure up in Mayhem 2.0.

However, I have a feeling that most of the people saying “this is how everything should be!” are not thinking if M2.0, but rather wanting everything to be as good as the Lob at the current state of the content. And that I vehemently disagree with.

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I hate to tell you that clamoring for nerfs puts you firmly in the minority. No one is looking at the ion canon change saying “Good job GBX lets pull down high performing guns”. Again if the game was competitive Id be right there with you as the game would just follow a meta. But if you feel OP run a different com or gun. Try theme builds or play with only gear you would put in B tier or less. For example try run an infiltrator zane build. No real need to take away fun seeing as it is avoidable if you don’t like it.

BTW GBX the Rough Rider should work with this com so silly its for a CCC always full build rather than an always empty one @Noelle_GBX

Health level vs DPS out put is not challenge. It’s a test of patients. I can 100% get on GBX for sub par design when it comes to challenge. Sinking one clip of a cutsman or one volly from a lob is no more or less challenging. Yet you seem to just want things they were 2 weeks ago with a meta of a handfull of guns rather than adding at least 6 to the top tier and many more to just below that.

If you’re calling for DESIGNED challenge then that would be a complete rework of the game for example immunities to certain elements, gun types, etc for enemies and skill based weak spots to either break those or take down the enemy (not just sit and wait immunity phases those suck). Design implies thought and purpose where skill comes into play not just my gun has bigger stats. Very few fights in this game even toy with skill but just bullet sponges and some mild environmental hazard avoidance. Best fight was probably the agonizer but there are a ton of guns to hastily farm that.

2.0 seems like they are trying to approach some fun modifiers, though some concern me (big head specifically).

Not trying to pick a fight here, we have the same goal to drive GBX to make the game better. Just different theories of how that should be done. I hate just amping up Health bars and calling it more difficult. Id rather have them be between M3 and M4 and significantly bump the ai of the mobs to force me to think more rather than just pump in 2 clips rather than one.

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true enough that we dont know how M 2.0 will be like so I appreciate the buffs but I agree with this post.

The storm/firestorm and krakatoa definitely needed buffs, but not the way I would’ve liked tbh. the whole identity of those weapons was you shot/killed an enemy to proc projectiles, then the projectiles spawned would wreck enemies. While I love the buffs to the weapons, I think their projectiles should’ve been overbuffed over the bullets they fire.

Make the firestorm and krakatoa fire projectiles spawn and move faster, increase their radius, etc. The storm as well. The buffs made the weapons effective, but boring. They all boil down to how good their single shots are, and their gimmick (the main point of the gun) is just a secondary feature.

These weapons really needed buffs, and im glad that happened. Though, GBX should’ve done this without stripping them of their identity.

The lob is too powerful as well. A 30-20% decrease in damage wouldn’t affect it much. But then again… M2.0 isnt out yet

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balancing means nerfs and buffs to make every gun as viable as each other LOL i dont know why people wouldnt want that

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Because it means nerfs might happen, and people have an emotional reaction to the thought that their shiny one-shot gun might be taken away.

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hahaha

His “dead wrong” has 18 likes. Someone agreed with him.
(Full disclosure, it was only seventeen likes before I pressed it too.)

you ever seen any flat earth and anti vaxxer vids? yeah

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My opinion is only mine. I voice it, but I respect others views. I also expect others will disagree with me and that if my opinion matters to me, I may be forced to defend it. That is how discussion works.

I agreed with him. I thought your comment was blunt, rude, and you provide nothing to substantiate your rather strong assertion.

So, discuss. Who knows. If you provide something thought-provoking, or some kind of substantive argument on why you feel as you do it is possible I might understand, even if I do not ultimately agree. There have been times when someone points out something I missed, or explains something clearly I misunderstood and I have changed my opinion.

But not with comments like this.

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Believing that nerfs and balance shouldn’t exist in a game because it is pve is such a ridiculous notion that there’s not much to discuss. He’s completely right.

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Balance is important, but we have seen some hellish nerfs, over-nerfs, ones hard enough even Gearbox decided they had grossly overcompensated. And I’ve yet to be in a single match where someone has praised the nerfs and bragged about how much better and enjoyable the game is for them. Never once. The few times I’ve seen praise are from people often more concerned with taking enjoyment away from others than seeing others enjoy themselves.

I do not support that there should never be adjustments, but we have some now long-standing issues, pretty serious ones in the game that have not been addressed that I think are more important. We have people right in this very post who literally can’t play, or play at all is severely disrupted.

Even if he’s “right”, that isn’t how people discuss things. It won’t kill someone to say, “Dude, really, balance IS important - let me tell you why I believe it is so.” Kaiune and I have disagreed on some things. I’m not always on board with his thoughts and ideas, but we discuss it.

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can you explain to me how thats relevant?

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I would be more welcoming of Gearbox’s ‘balance’ attempts, nerfs or buffs, if I trusted their ability to do so reasonably and with any sort of consistency. Or if they were willing to admit they were wrong and reverse nerfs which are unwarranted.

And judging by how Fl4k and Moze were unfairly and severely punished even before M4 came out and still remain so till this day, I see no reason to do so.

Granted, the scale of the buffs are completely ridiculous and I have no idea what Gearbox is going for given their approach early on, where nerfed the crossroad, lucians and butcher for nothing more than being popular.

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I welcome op weapons. It is our choice to use them or not. GB has listened to the community and acted accordingly.

Take GR for example. We can now turn it off completely if we want an extra challenge. This is giving us choice. MT now has choice, play it on single player scaling or 4 player scaling.

By calling for nerfs to recently buffed weapons one is asking for the choice to be taken away.

And with the rng so broken in the game, having an ‘easy mode’ weapon to farm with is a good thing.

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To you. Probably not. If you can’t see a comment getting 18 likes meaning it might be more in line with the communities desires compared to the post with 3, no, actually I’m pretty sure I can’t provide you with anything that will prove “relevance”.

I would also like to add that there are trade off’s in balancing weapons to top tier DPS. For one the unique effects of certain weapons that work at lower dps might not translate well…

Balancing around top DPS always results in a power creep, and fun weapons not reaching end game content. Imagine the strain on your computer if the lob fired like a Maggie… There is a reason the Maggie preforms so well. It has low visual effect, few strange behaviours that could devour cpu when delivering 100’s of rounds at the fire rates needed for M4…

What I am saying is that balancing by DPS is easier when there are no effects, but players want these as well - as they make the game fun.

Technical considerations should mean that DPS Meta is just a meme that serious players can choose to depense with. I’d rather have games where content can be accessed with more variety, and just accept that crazy DPS meta will result. That way hotfixes would not fill me with so much anxiety…

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The worrying thing about the buffs of late is that they’ve been base damage increases instead of…anything else. With new content coming within a month (one that will allegedly have 10 levels of difficulty) I’m guessing that the new “OP” weapons will not maintain that quality in Mayhem 2.0. Damage increases of 9x-10x in one swoop leads me to believe that we’re going to see even worse number bloat on the enemy side in the future. That will lead to more frustration on the player side (for those who were struggling pre-weapon buffs) as their once-strong gear becomes weaker simply because numbers on the enemy side are increasing faster.

I also share the OPs concern that damage bloat on the player side will encourage garbage-tier raid design like Master Gee or Dexidous if damage output essentially becomes a non-factor in difficulty. Or something like Haderax, who has such high DPS check that TTK is either 10 seconds or 20 minutes. lol

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The Lob along with other weapons with buffs applied are a blast to use now. At best I used these weapons a half dozen times prior to the recent hot fix. This happening just prior to Mayhem 2.0 will likely render these useless soon enough. After the sour taste many players had post this recent level-cap I consider these buffs an apology by GB :blush:

A post with more likes doesn’t mean its necessarily correct.

You’ve never met anyone who genuinely enjoys nerfs? Forums are always huge bubbles (18 likes on a post isn’t even a good sample size to begin with…). Its evident that there are people in this thread who genuinely enjoy the game being tweaked in such a way that all guns are as good as each other. Having outlier weapons that one-shot enemies on the highest difficulty doesn’t sound healthy to me. People suggest to bring up all weapons to one-shot level, but if every gun does that on the hardest mode, what is the point of difficulty even? What’s the point of choosing anything else? What’s the point of making builds to make certain weapons shine?

That’s the point of balancing. Every gun should be good to a certain degree, and its up to player builds to make that gun amazing/OP. Guns that jump to that point of being OP without any effort take away the point to making builds. No one is saying enjoying an outlier gun is invalid (hell i love the lob for farming bosses) but begging Gearbox to not nerf weapons (especially nerfs that make sense, that people still use ((ION CANNON)) despite knee-jerk ITS DED reactions) might have the best intentions, but it doesn’t mean its the most helpful one.

And to be fair, some nerfs make more sense to be reversed now. The OG popular guns like the Flakker, Crossroad, and Butcher don’t do much for me on M4 compared to other existing guns. The Flakker/Hex nerf was a reaction Moze’s broken as butts launch build, but now that the fundamental reason that build was broken is fixed those nerfs serve no purpose. Though, Moze still needs a huge rework to make up for it. We also need a stable difficulty system first before we make huge balancing decisions to avoid stuff like this from happening again (a direction they’re obviously taking with last week’s buffs and M2.0)

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