Generally speaking do you agree that TPS VHs are much stronger than BL2 VHs?

TPS VHs bascially become OP at levels 40+, especially the top tier ones like Jack and Nisha.

I don’t think the same can be said with the BL2 guys, maybe Sal with his broken grog health regen build or Maya (who is easily the strongest BL2 VH generally speaking). But let’s say the broken grog stuff didn’t exist, I think the TPS VHs are way stronger.

Thoughts etecetera?

I think they are 100% better designed. But there are some considerations to take first to gauge whether they’re more powerful.

  • Do they each have access to the gear in the other game, or just their own? (IMO you’d need the former to be fair.)
  • Is effect transfer still around? Even discounting the grog, the Rubi invalidates the well designed survivability the TPS characters have, when you can just throw a grenade and insta-heal.
    • And then characters like Sal and Nisha get a lot of their damage from effect transfers.
  • Is the Norfleet+Sham considered legit play?
  • The Bee benefits the BL2 VHs waaay more.
  • Most BL2 raid bosses don’t spawn the mobs that the TPS characters rely on to activate their kill skills.
  • Etc…

IMO you just end up having to consider limiting so much stuff, that it’s no longer fun/rewarding to try and compare them.

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the gear they would use would be TPS gear

Full power Athena might compare to BL2

Zero, sal, krieg, and gaige are just on another lvl of power compared to TPS

I don’t have to speak about sal, even without the grog nozzle he’s still broken

Krieg is basically immortal and can nuke 99.9%(including several raid bosses) of the game via bloodspolsion

Gaige with anarchy, close enough, and guns with bouncing bullets. Or shamfleet

In the hands of a good player zero is arguably 2nd most powerful in the game

Axton and Maya compare a lot better to TPS imo

But as stated, if you start limiting what characters have access to you literally start to remove the borderlands out of the characters. Even then krieg can beat most of the game with 0 gear, as can zero

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I’m saying if you remove all the broken stuff and basically view it as a general question.

Not that I agree really with the stuff you said, Krieg is very much mortal I don’t think he’s that powerful, Zero dies very quickly and easily despite being able to have high dps and Gauge has to rely on random luck.

Like I said, I think (generally speaking) Maya is the strongest BL2 VH, a casual level player can take her to end game very easily. So I compare her to TPS VHs the most.

Mobbing (A slight consideration for level 9 Mutator (w/out Shadowtrap))

  • Remains God
    • Nisha
  • Top tier
    • Krieg - This softer scaling and better debuff (cryo) will just blow his melee build out of the water. His other playstyles are nerfed and would put him lower.
    • Sal/Jack/Athena - All play pretty much the same, just spamming hyperion shotguns (faster than Deputy builds).
    • Zer0 - Even without the Rapier, the softer scaling and more will make him a melee beast again.
  • Still pretty good
    • Claptrap
    • Gaige - Losing stuff like the Fibber, Norfleet, etc… makes her accuracy loss hurt. And enemies die too fast for the tradeoff to be worth it.
    • Aurelia
  • Struggle Bus
    • Maya - I can’t even begin to explain how the lack of BL2 gear hurts her. She is a very average jack-of-all-trades, and struggles to stay relevant without good Chain Reaction synergy.
    • Axton - He does grenade damage… tps doesn’t. We lack good guns that scale with grenade damage, and the Storm Front is better used by Nisha and Athena.
    • Wilhelm - “User of generic low DPS weapons #3”. He just does nothing special, like the two above him (in terms of TPS).

Bossing (Sentinel, Eclipse, EOS, and a slight consideration for level 9 Shadowtrap.)

  • Top tier
    • Athena
    • Jack
    • Nisha
    • Krieg - Grenade resistance, running out of ammo, boss status immunity, etc… Still keeps him in place even with the abundance of mobs.
    • Claptrap
    • Sal - As bootleg as it would be, Deputy Sal still exist. But TPS brought back almost none of the gear that let him use his brokeness. (Unless we’re including Infini-shoting with a Vladof launcher. ‘Glitch’ weapon effects also transfer, and would also put him around Athena’s level.)
    • Gaige - Pray the Badaboom doesn’t kill you.
  • TPS hates crit characters
    • Zero/Aurelia - Long damage ramp time, squishy, and bosses often can’t be crit. And melee Zer0 either can’t hit the boss, doesn’t one shot the boss, or other characters already one shot the bosses he does.
  • The Laser Disker Exist (only Sentinel doesn’t resist grenade damage)
    • Wilhelm/Axton
  • Pray for Her
    • Maya - Her bossing lives and dies with the Bee.

I’m open to refutations.

Maya is bad at mobs seriously? To me she was the strongest, she stunned them all instantly and splashed them with deadly acid also, and she got 100%(!) damage buff with her SMG mod thingy!

Meanwhile, Zero without the rapier… Sorry bro just gives me nightmares tbh

Not bad, just overshadowed. Especially in TPS.

When I first played BL2, I lived and breathed Maya. Even now I use her a good bit just because she’s good with every weapon type. But she relies on BL2’s gear, and is more “easy” than powerful.

Except in TPS everyone has access cryo, and most character’s best-in-slot grenade is the Quasar.

Most SMGs in TPS either suck, or can’t compare to the stuff other vault hunters are using. The top tier characters use shotguns, and even then there’s snipers and lasers.

The Sandhawk carried the SMG name in BL2, and is part of the reason why I say she’s so reliant on that game’s gear.

I may be wrong, but TPS scales so much more softly than BL2. Cryo also gives a bigger buff than slag, the Avalance allows you to apply cryo in Deception, you can use any gun you want with a blade, etc…

ah you see that all sounds like heavily strict and specific stuff.

My question was meant to taken generally, to players of all levels. So I still think what I said makes sense.

I’m curious as to in what way you feel Maya relies so heavily on gear? It’s not something I’ve really thought about before, but my initial reaction (at least to level 72) was, “No, she doesn’t”. Well, other than maybe a decent shield, but then I tend to need one of those on all my characters!

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Yeah not sure why i even bothered replying. I knew you’d set the rules to get exactly the outcome you want anyways

The gaige and krieg parts are just factually wrong. You don’t kill raid bosses near instantly if you’re weak. Or kill mobs by just being close to them half the time. Or beat the game without gear. Screw proper sentence structure. Gaige has auto seeking bullets, so not exactly random

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Generally speaking I agree the Diablo 2 classes are much stronger.

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This is under the context of her retaining her current power (relative to herself mainly), if she was in TPS.

  • The Bone of the Ancients is a very large boost in damage, but more importantly uptime for a character reliant on their action skill.
  • SMGs definitely aren’t Sandhawk level in this game, but they aren’t even Tattler level either. They are subpar, and made even more glaringly so when other characters can use stronger weapon classes.
  • Chain Reaction is Maya’s strongest mobbing skill. But there are no strong split projectile or pseudo-B0re weapons in this game. No Pimpernel, no Twister, no Bekah, no Omen, etc…
  • Maya relies on the Bee (and a lot of times its synergy with the Sandhawk) to be viable for raiding. She is not a good user of tediores, shotguns, launchers, snipers, etc… like the other characters are.
  • A lot of her crowd control strength relies on other characters not having access to cryo gear.
  • Her nichely powerful shields like the Rough Rider or Antagonist don’t exist.
  • Etc…
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A post including “…do you agree…” is something I don’t particularly care for, I refused to answer lawyer questions phrased like that when I was regularly deposed prior to retiring.

And since I publicly put TPS 4th in my list of Borderlands games I suspect it’s self-evident what my answer would be.

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Your answers are unnecessary, as this :point_down:

Is undoubtedly true of OP. It’s some dastardly lawyerish double speak.

However, the correct answer has already been provided here:

Just saying, Mario would house all these pixel golems.:wink:

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Close Enough: exists

Anarchy: exists

Jakobs Shotguns: exist

…and have the added bonus of bringing up the Anarchy stacks really fast.

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Yeah those only work because of close enough, aka the auto seeking bullets i mentioned.

Ah, that makes more sense.

I wouldn’t want to reply on a single weapon, but what about The Machine? Sure, ammo would be a problem, but it wouldn’t really be bad. And glitch machine pistols with the right roll can pretty much double-up as SMGs. Toss in a Fridgia as well?

It’s a good weapon, but in the context of CR, it doesn’t really have any synergy. And she doesn’t have really any overt synergy with it, and would end up being like Wilhelm; Simply using powerful weapons, but not taking them to the “next level”. Where as characters like Aurelia or Jack do, and it’s not even their best option.

Disclaimer: Everything in this game is viable and fun for those that want it. So I while I like comparing the characters of this game, it doesn’t mean people should stop using or enjoying them if that’s what they want.

Yeah, but it wouldn’t work with her Cat COM. Which is why I pointed it out as a strength she lost.

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Not true, I believe simply my question was misunderstood. I’m speaking from point of view of the general gamer, I notice you suggested a bunch of specific items probably you’d have to farm for and unothorthodox styles of play. My meaning was simply taking the characters to UVHM with the most standard ease, so using mostly the normal weapons gotten from boxes and vending machines as you progress.