Think of it this way: Full IB cooldown is 104 “seconds”. Nothing changes this number; increased AS cooldown effects simply make seconds tick that percent faster. +100% AS CD makes 2 cooldown seconds pass for each RL second. Grizzled just deducts a few seconds from that cooldown, increased AS cooldown does not compound its benefit.
You see this in the numbers. Topped Off vs Rough Rider has a ratio of ~36%. The 5 kill Grizzled impact ratio between Topped Off and Rough Rider is also ~36%. Grizzled removed the same number of seconds, but the increased AS cooldown from Topped Off meant those seconds would have needed 64% less time to count without Grizzled.
Actually the only reason I put any points at all into Grizzled or EP is to get to Short Fuse. If I could use FitSD (kept nuking myself when I did with my current build) I wouldn’t use either. I actually agree with you almost completely. I noticed EP outperforming Grizzled before I had topped off (again, with my current explosive orientated build). Neither skill is very good and they are made significantly worse thanks to topped off. I feel both those skills should offer other bonuses as well. Grizzled should add survivability in some fashion and EP should probably offer DPS. I feel that way about a lot of Moze’s skills.
While everything you said is how it works I wouldn’t say the terminology is confusing, I’d say the Grizzled skill description is just straight up wrong.
It states that an actual set number of second(s) are removed from the cooldown. Unlike EP and other cooldown reductions that are percentage base and more logical that a percent of a smaller number results in a smaller cooldown reduction… Grizzled just says it removes a second per kill per point with diminishing results per kill. I can’t see how this is intentional.
A 35s cooldown, or a 85s cooldown should have seconds removed. Otherwise what’s even the point in the skill, it’s just removing a percent of the cooldown per kill.
Probably just comes down to different playstyle I guess. Really what it comes down to is picking the lesser of evils with remaining points in DW to get to Short Fuse. WCICATG is pretty useless, and don’t get me started on TCP…
Fair enough, depends what your fighting for sure. If you’re using shock healing I’d say your choice doesn’t really matter if you’re just bypassing FitSD.
All I’m saying is if you do have Topped Off proccing most of the time while auto bear is active, Grizzled will ALMOST always outperform EP. Except against the bosses you said you were fighting often so that’s a good call for your build.
I’m not sure if this is on another thread but when you Google explosive punctuation this is still one of the first links. @twoPIZZA do you think the skill is worth the points since the buff? Or is it still only good with weapons like a kyb’s or hellshock, high firerate splash weapons?
Figured I’d ask you here since you probably have the most data on the subject, even though we disagree on the skill’s usefulness.
The skill is about as effective as it was before the buff to EP and buff to Moze CDT. So if you liked it before it’s roughly the same. The CDT reduction in turn made EP worse, so the buff to EP made it back to about where it was.
Why did the CDT reduction make EP worse? Math, 5% of a smaller amount = a smaller effectiveness. The diminishing effect of stacking CDR also made EP less functional (compared to Grizzled especially). With the buff to 8% it’s about as bad as it was before any of the changes.
I’m not sure why we would disagree though. Just punch your numbers into the formula and you’ll only get one result. It’s almost never worth investing 5 whole points at the end of DW to get a very mediocre CDR increase. Especially now that TCP is one of Moze’s best skills, there just isn’t room for EP at all.
So the quicker my cooldown the less EP and grizzled work, which probably means they just buffed it to compensate for the lower cooldown.
Ep is more or less like combining the consecutive hits mechanic with topped off from what I’ve seen, the second you stop firing it drops seen my CD go from 1 to 4 because of reloading so it is my preference at the end of the day becauae most of the time my shields aren’t full anyway.
Not exactly. Shorter total CDT Grizzled isn’t affected, EP is. Quicker CDR both are affected, but EP vastly more so.
If you mean you just have to keep hitting people, yeah. But not stacking like CH. It’s more like maintaining CH.
Really all that matters is whether you want to use it, but if you are using it you shouldn’t have CDR increases on gear at all. If you do then you’re gaining little.
I’ll also clarify, all CDR increases diminish each other. Topped Off does the most, but they all work the same way.
That would have been cooler if it stacked but yeah just sustainment.
I do have to ask why you hold so much value in raw numbers and calculations when the formula is different in combat? By that I mean we have an ebb and flow.
The raw numbers make EP look better and all calculations were done on that number.
Realistically EP is way worse than on paper because it’s not a constant proc.
But also, these numbers are extremely accurate. It’s just timers, and EP saves like less than a couple seconds in the very best pristine scenario. Theres really no ‘feels’ like it does well, a stopwatch test will show you what it’s worth.
Mind Sweeper is an example where numbers might not work perfectly to show damage, but CDT is a number subtract a number with no ifs or buts.
Make sure that you always have the social distance boundary issues modifier and bam! (pun intended) now you know how to avoid killing yourself with TCP
This is kinda reminding me of destiny where the “best” gun was decided by a guy shooting an ogre that couldn’t fight back.
If it’s the only thing helping one’s cooldown, what was it like 20-15% actually despite the skill description? I think that’s what I was getting without topped off.
As for the test against an ogre in destiny. Currently the formula we use gives EP the benefit of the doubt similar to shooting something that can’t fight back. It’s perfect conditions, and EP still falls flat. So real world usage it’s only going to be worse. Make sure when you respec between them to see for yourself you don’t have the Topped Off bug (I assume that’s still a thing since the update).
With GR turned off EP does exactly what it says. With Topped Off or other CDR increases it just falls below the other CDR increases because of unreliability and cost.
And lastly Grizzled is fantastic, but if you only get like 1 kill then you’re probably in the wrong mayhem level.
That’s the main thing I’m saying, how often is topped off active say in True Takedown or slaughtershaft?
Btw I had tested with a rough rider at level 50 and I think my cdr from GR was 10% and I tested from full cooldown so the variation was from inconsistent MoD making me reload, I decided to put 1 in grizzled back then lol.
Topped off being active though is irrelevant. In a situation where Topped Off is never active EP is still bad. EP badly diminishes if you stack CDR increases like Topped off, The GR stat, a class mod CDR roll, an anoint etc…
Lets though consider a best case situation for EP (5 points in EP), you have 0 other increases to CDR and you manage to upkeep EP for the entire cooldown duration. On instant exit that would give you exactly a 25 second cooldown. If instead you put those 5 points in Grizzled and got 2 kills, your cooldown would be under 26 seconds. So for all practical purposes they’re even. If you got 3 kills Grizzled already gives you slightly under 22 seconds for cooldown. Realistically however a well tuned build with appropriate anoints can likely expect a kill every 3-5 seconds after exiting Bear. So what does 4 kills give? An 18 second cooldown, or by comparison 7 seconds better.
Lets include Topped off and 10% from Guardian rank as thats common. I’ll calc this assuming Topped off is active 10% of the time, which when using a Big Boom Blaster or Sitorak I don’t think is entirely unreasonable.
5 points in EP will give you 20.5 seconds of cooldown.
4 kills with Grizzled would give you a 14 seconds cooldown. Only managing 2 kills gives you a 19.8 second cooldown.
Where in these numbers, is combat flow ever likely to favour EP? The numbers so heavily imply that Grizzled is better and I have given every liberty to let EP have positive circumstances. I could do a comparison with 80% EP uptime but that just favours Grizzled and doesn’t really show anything new.
You guys are pointing out the pros and cons of these two skills. Ever played with the meta Zane and Amara builds? They’re pretty good a stealing kills on accident . Then shield selection and mod rollls are important, I’ve got a friend who told me how he uses EP to compensate for never having topped off because he uses a stop gap, sure it was based off “feels” but it worked and made his build easy to run.
The reason I refuse to call EP a waste is numbers only care about other numbers, they are incapable of understanding the letters around them. I’ve said before grizzled is definitely abetter choice but grizzled is not objectively better for every situation or build.
Okay this is the first mention of coop play. Coop play is definitely a less talked about side of min maxing as more can be made to work. Coop smooths over cracks and allows ideas to work that shouldn’t, hence why its seldom people ask for coop advice. In turn advice is directed more firmly at the solo player.
That said if you’re not able to get 2 kills in a coop game you’re either struggling enough that cooldown is low on the issues list or your coop partner is strong enough they will carry absolutely anything you do. So whether or not your choice is 100% optimal here probably isn’t of high value.
When giving advice in a general sense you want to account for common situations where the choice is important. There isn’t a general situation of high value where EP is competitive. We’re barely considering things like a com or artifact CDR roll and EP is still struggling. A coop spec with 1 CDR roll on relic or the gunner CDR anoint has negligibly worse performance than when you get no kills but allows you to invest into Grizzled which on the occaisions a kill is found will give noticeably better performance.
If we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find a situation where EP is a decent option then is it really worth mentioning?
The other thing to consider is that putting 4 points into Griz costs almost nothing. FitSD damage diminishes badly past 1 point and isn’t really worth more points, especially if you’re concerned about Cooldown. EP on the other hand has competition. Its both next to ‘to the last’ and the Tier 2 skills also still have points you can invest in it. If we consider edge cases we also have to consider the opportunity cost of putting 5 points in EP vs Griz.
Griz not only could sacrifice from any of the same skills you’d sac for Ep but it can also take points that would otherwise go into FitSD. This isn’t a liberty EP gets. EP is also in competiton with SSB, TCP and MoD.
So Yes for practical advice given without a list of 100 disclaimers I do think Griz is objectively better and should always be taken. The T’s and C’s required to make EP equivalent or better is long enough that it won’t ever be generally applicable. This isn’t a debate like Pearl vs Victory Rush where build depending the victor changes. This is fishing the bottom of the barrel for a consolation prize. EP is a bad skill and shouldn’t be recommended in any vaguely general sense.
I think you’re kinda assuming alot about how strong a certain build is and how certain snafus happen in combat, solo or co-op. I find it extremely odd how the number crunchers hate the skill but I’ve known plenty of hardcore solo and co op players that still use it and love to get those few extra seconds trimmed down so we can have the other buffs we want, helps fine-tune the build to have options outside of cdr on artifacts.
Btw I don’t think having friends to play a coop game with is the bottom of the barrel but what evs.
. Then shield selection and mod rollls are important, I’ve got a friend who told me how he uses EP to compensate for never having topped off because he uses a stop gap, sure it was based off “feels” but it worked and made his build easy to run.