I never intended to exclude other action skills. I just mentioned Phasegrasp specifically because it currently is the dominant way of gaining stacks extremely quick. Do you have any recommendation on how to word this paragraph better / clearer?
I also couldn’t decide whether I want to give it 3 or 4 stars. On one hand, it can be very powerful in the right setup, but it requires some specific stuff to make it that good and reliable. That didn’t seem to fit in the 4-star category where mostly “no matter what” skills are located in.
I was wondering why you think that I consider Restless to be as good as Transcend. Then I noticed it also sports 4 stars. That was an oversight, I probably only copied it from another skill and didn’t check the number of stars. My bad, I intended it to have just 3. I’ll fix it immediately.
You’re right. I’ll remove that part. Thanks.
That’s weird, they do work on my end (Firefox, Edge and Chrome). Might be an issue with your browser or its cache.
I’ve just seen your maths. Good job, didn’t know that.
That’s right, but a lot of it can also come from equipment (class mod and artefact). I do agree with you, though. I noticed that I rated that skills in particular from a perspective of a Phasezerker class mod user. That will get changed.
Agreed, I’ll change it.
That’s interesting. And while looking at the formula it does make sense. Thanks for pointing that out.
With all the new information I actually consider rating Wrath with 4 stars and From Rest and Laid Bare with 3 (with the option for 4 in the description). That’s because Wrath is probably more appealing for the majority of builds/players while the other two only have the potential to be as good as or in some rare cases better then Wrath. Would you agree with that?
I think this should absolutely be 5/5, no questions. With Phasezerker com, the +10 rush stacks are insane, another 30% gun damage and 100% action skill cool down. Without, the value of the additional action skill use becomes much greater (since you wont have insane cool down from the com). Honestly I think it’s one of the best capstone skills in the game.
The rankings are less important to me than good descriptions making it clear where/in what situations the skills are good. I said 4 because they are all worth taking for almost every build, if you have the free points. If we are allowing half stars, maybe wrath 4.5 and the others 4? If not, wrath 4, and the others 3 is fine as long as it’s clear that they can be 4 pointers on some builds (i.e. from rest is much better with maliwan heavy load out, laid bare is amazing in co-op, bossing, and ties that bind builds without Avatar)
I don’t want to rate skills based on specific equipment. There should be as few as possible variables in the rating system. But I do mention those special interactions and benefits in the descriptions.
Fair enough. Then I stand by all three as 4 pointers. I agree that Wrath is probably the best of the three, but I also think all three meet your definition of a 4 point skill; I don’t think of any of them as just fillers to the next rank.
Edit: From rest could be 3 stars.
Edit 2: after re-reading what you wrote, I agree with you. Wrath as 4, with the other two as 3 with the option for 4 is perfect.
@13igTyme has finished the write-up of the Fists Of The Elements section and I incorporated it into the guide. I’m quite tired out at this point so there might be some inconsistencies. Let me know of those issues and I’ll fix them after I got some sleep.
All the recommended changes should also be incorporated. I provided some more details for a lot of the skills or even rewrote the descriptions completely. Hopefully, I haven’t missed any feedback.
Thanks for putting this all together. I agree with most of what’s written in the Fist of the Elements section, with a few minor changes that I’ll mention later, but the biggest one is that Ties that Bind is a 5 star action skill in my mind - even before you get into the craziness it’s capable of with do harm stacks, it effectively increases gun damage by .35N, where N is the number of linked targets, e.g. 3 links is a bonus 105% damage. That’s insane, and is in my mind the definition of build definingly powerful.
Compare that to indiscriminate which is worth 15% bonus damage generally, or 45% bonus damage when shooting a grasped target. Like Ties that Bind it needs more than one enemy to benefit, but unlike TTB it doesn’t scale with the number of enemies.
(RIP Kevin - 11/21/19 - Gone but not forgotten.)
I only listed it at 4 stars because it doesn’t do direct action skill damage, so some things don’t proc after skill use. I my mind 5 star is a “I must get that skill if I’m going down this tree,” kind of thing.
But naturally this is open to discussion and 4 or 5 star is mostly going to be the same and just depend on build.
nice overall guide for new players. i agree you shouldnt rate skills based off of synergy with very specific gear. But, maybe just add a side note about the unleash the dragon synergy with wildfire? i agree that wildifre is pretty horrible in most cases, but if doing a unleash the dragon melee build, this is a MAJOR overall damage increase
I don’t know why but more so than all of the other bugs it just frustrates me so much that phaseslam annointed perks does not work with fracture and deliverance (that and phaseslam 200% melee is bugged half the time and doesn’t even work with phaseslam)
@mccloud.christopher@13igTyme Yeah, I can agree with both statements. It’s crazy good but has some drawbacks. The main reason why I wouldn’t rate it 5 stars is that it isn’t that “one-point wonder doing all the good stuff no need to use anything else” kind of skill. When doing boss runs you’re still probably better off switching to Phasecast and therefore I’d prefer them to be on an easily comparable level. But the AOE damage is just soooo good…
I don’t know, I feel somewhat lost on that one. I might let the majority of people decide.
Great idea, I’ll add it later today.
The more feedback, the better. Every contribution is valuable.
phaseslam should be on par (not lower) with fracture because of anointed phaseslam perks.
Root to rise should be lower than one with nature, and should be on par with clarity (but not higher)
Do unto others (rating is really low for 1 point). I just killed aurelia with just do unto others and nothing else. Also in combination with nova berne I killed aurelia afk (both kills are normal mayhem 3). also for melee build is a good started damage to strip shield preserve your blitz attack. so 1 rating i think it is too low.
*Remnant also is too low for a 2 star rating. I mean a 1 point investment is all it is needed. at least it is a 3 for me.
(RIP Kevin - 11/21/19 - Gone but not forgotten.)
I initially had a melee rating and gun rating for Illuminated Fist, when I PM the OP.
This should definitely be 5/5. Group DPS wise it’s a multiplicative (1+0.35*N) damage where N is the number of linked targets beyond the locked target. It also has superb synergy with Indiscriminate (another 5/5 skill). I believe the only AS damage related skill that it doesn’t proc is Samsara and probably revelation/glamour.
For melee builds I’d rate this 5/5. It’s at minimum a 75% multiplicative melee damage increase (element matching flesh/armor).
This should be 2/5 because some weapons (and that one relic) have very strong DoTs (like 8k dps). Spreading those is a niche that should lift this skill from being uncategorically bad.
While good the damage bonus is only additive. It’s only 1 point but 5/5 should be reserved for either playstyle/build defining skills. In group play the reload only applies to the killing blow. I’d say 3 or 4 stars.
Just a note that melee damage also doesn’t work. Might be worth adding to the description since you already mentioned AS and grenade damage.
Honestly this should be a 1/5. A random non-element matched DoT is pretty useless.
If it were an option I’d put this at 4.5/5 because while it’s definitely very good I don’t think it’s quite build/playstyle defining. Also it’s not quite an unconditional 18% multiplicative damage boost. You can only get up to 18% if your AS element matches your target. 4/5 would be a safer rating.
Fair enough, like I said even without the synergies I think it’s easily 5 stars, and stronger than other skills which are currently rated 5 stars. For what it’s worth, I also think that trying to evaluate skills in isolation, without any reference to synergies, isnt as helpful to newer players as a more complete picture could be.
Put another way, I see the guide as a resource for newer players, and if a newer player asked me about the Fist of the Elements tree, the insanity of a Ties that Binds build is the first thing I talk about.
I agree with everything @Skwuruhl said here. I would also drop Catharsis to 1/5 as it currently stands, and an argument could be made for raising Sustainment to 5/5, if only because we’re rating Soul Sap 5/5 and Sustainment is at least as good.
Just clarifying in the description that a skill is only meant/works for gun/melee/hybrid should be good enough imo.
Yeah 4/5 for a health increase seems a bit much. It’s worth mentioning that increased health hurts your ability to health gate with Sustainment or any other non % hp healing.
1/5 is a bit low. It’s a respectable (even if sub-par) amount of damage. 2/5 like the other similar skills would be a better rating.
Remnant should be a 3 or maybe 4 (if the orb AI is good, which iirc it isn’t) with a clarification that every point after the 1st is 2/5 (or even 1/5) investment.
Soul sap applies the healing in an AoE around you, making medic Amara kind of a thing you could do. I’m actually not sure how large the AoE is though. If it’s small I’d say drop soul sap to a 4/5. Sustainment is a 4/5 though, only works with gun damage. You can’t heal with storm front and ■■■■ like you could with Maya and her life steal, and that was only a 4/5.
(RIP Kevin - 11/21/19 - Gone but not forgotten.)
For One with Nature the health increase does effect health gating, however the elemental damage resistance is great. If your element is fire you can literally face tank TVHM/M3, with a high elemental damage build. You don’t even have to shoot, just a few DOTs can keep you alive. Toss in a good shield like the Transformer, Re-Charger, or Stop-Gap and you will never die.
I tested Helping Hands and One With Nature in duels and they both give 0.6x damage taken, stacking multiplicatively. So 0.36x damage taken together. Haven’t tested how these stack with adaptive shields or shield resistance but it’s likely multiplicative. It’s possible that they’re additive with One With Nature though.