#202

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but micronades proc the Electric Banjo. I’ve been able to completely vaporize groups of mobs – even armored mobs – using a 300v2 OPQ, an MS com and a banjo.

4 Likes
#203

@zwangzug @cailte

You raise a good point and I had plenty of points into Vampyr.

Don’t know why I was squishier with MS.

Perhaps Hurdy is correct and I did not “stand off” enough.

Although I don’t think I changed play styles, points or gear between coms.

When I went to Joltz’s Deathless Build THAT was a big change in gear and point distribution…but not between BM and MS.

Interesting…

2 Likes
#204

WCICATG should be the skill that gets grenade damage. As long as extra grenade capacity is the only thing it has to offer, it will always be redundant when you could put the 3 points in MoD instead because any form of grenade regen will always be superior to max grenade capacity. But make grenade damage available in a skill and not solely via passive bonuses on gear, and it’s more food for thought for Moze players who run Mind Sweeper.

1 Like
#205

Previously, base damage was not high enough for the exponential nature of MS grenades to really take off. It took 3-4 chained grenades for an insta delete. Now it’s only 2-3.

It’s sufficient now to aim for as many nade procs as possible, as one chain will be enough.

Aside from this, MS is more consistent now due to the splash boosts in TCP. This really affects how Shortfuse works with this com.

It needs a different playstyle, about movement and distance from targets. It can mean lots of self damage, but also has the second best sustain by value of the number of times vampyr is activated by the micros.

Of special note, is that MS gets value from three of the mayhem mods directly and one indirectly.

Okay boomer for grenade damage, big kick for weapon damage and holy crit are all direct boosts to micro nades. Speed demon enables the keep your distance playstyle.

So it now has higher consistent DPS, plus bigger burst damage, good sustain and a less strenuous condition to maintain. It’s not that it’s only being discovered now, it’s that the recent buffs and changes have really elevated it.

#206

While I strongly disagree on some of these points and partially disagree on most of the others, I’m tired of the argument to be honest haha.

But this isn’t discussed much:

And I’ll say this goes for Blast Master as well. The grenade damage boost one is pretty insignificant. Holy crit definitely benefits MS more but also can benefit BM as well I guess? Aim for crits you get extra damage.

Speed Demon and big kick I wouldn’t even include in MS discussion as they don’t really have anything that benefits here more than any other build in the game. Speed Demon sure, you can get out of the way of nade radius but you can get in the way of it just as easily, also it makes crits harder to hit when you have a 150% speed boost. I would call it neutral / benefits almost every build. Big Kick is weapon damage at the cost of accuracy which is again decent for any build.

Also worth noting there’s a modifier that completely ruins MS. Just sayin.

#207

Personally, BM is still the more general purpose mod for me for a few reasons.

I think opinion may be biased in favor of MS sometimes because nearly all of the current end game content has us dealing with psychos or maliwan and nearly all ‘testing’ I see are some version of Athena or Maliwan TD plus the Cartel event where enemies spawn in clumps. But playing through all the different content, cistern, campaign zones, dlc zones… Lots of flyer enemies, lots of times I forget skag/wolf type enemies spit nades back at me, uncrittable enemies, annointed psychos teleporting next to me with tracker nade on their tail, etc. that mindsweeper flaws become more glaring once run through all available content, and not just vs maliwan or psychos.

Also, with the new tier of M6+ weapons, general trash and even badass mobs for most of the content at M10 die so fast that the nade spawns aren’t even necessary and only serve to hinder my movement as I wait for the nade droplets to clear out before I can proceed through tunnels, caves, etc. We’re literally 1 shotting most of the M10 trash with our kaosons and sandhawks right now, without mini nades and them spawning on a already gibbed badguy becomes a minor nuissance a lot of times, for me.

1 Like
#208

You’re still salty about how good TCP is, clearly. :wink:

3 Likes
#209

Haha, I still hate the skill so bloody much. And I also hate how I feel compelled to use it because of the increased splash damage.

2 Likes
#210

Question, I know that 1 point in PtHP is mostly for utility, but with the increased popularity of the MS, do you think is worth to go 3/3 for some MS chains/MS grenade crit? Or the combination of 300/90 anoint with MS is enough damage that you don’t need the extra points in PtHP?

#211

100% put 3/3 PtHP if you’re using MS, I would call this no exceptions advice.

1 Like
#212

The fact that Torgue Cross Promotion wasn’t reworked completely still boggles my mind. The splash damage bonus is an amazing addition but the skill is more annoying than ever now.

1 Like
#213

Are you confusing Pull the Holy pin with Fire in the skag den?

1 Like
#214

I never considered that mix up. I assume they’re referring to Blast Master not needing more than 1 point in PtHP. Maybe I didn’t make it very clear in the post that some skill points should be changed if you plan on swapping to MS, PtHP being the most important change from the BM meta.

As for if they did mean FitSD, up to you. Personally I wouldn’t unless I already had several points in it from my mod then you might as well try and make use of it, but only for spare points. DW tends to cost more points for MS already, so it’s tough to recommend such a mediocre investment. 1 point is still the best choice.

Anyway, at some point I will upload a few more skill tree specs for the BM meta, and some that can easily swap between MS and BM.

1 Like
#215

I’d never recommend more than 1 point in FiTSD. I wasn’t aware of the one utility point in PTHP in a BM build. I’d always go 3/3.

Hence the clarification.

#216

Gives you 2 extra points in DW. The extra damage doesn’t do anything without scaling, and you’ll get a Redistribution proc every CMT toss anyway (or other multi-proc grenade). It really doesn’t matter though, 1 point is the minimum for the meta. 2 is the minimum for less-than-ideal grenades. I often do 3/3 just so I can freely swap over to MS.

Going full Blast Master though, I prefer extra Vampyr and Grizzled.

1 Like
#217

Yep. I used to run 3/3 pre M2.0 because grenades still did something. So I felt the extra damage from more crits was worth it. We also had less competing points in DW since there was no need to put 5/5 in TCP. Now though it’s solely to proc redis and 1 point is more than enough for something like CMT. Just put the extra points in Vampyr like you said. But if you want the convenience to switch between MS and BM then 3/3 makes sense, and having less points in Vampyr really doesn’t matter.

2 Likes
#218

Except with MS, the micronade procs of Vampyr aren’t great without the cartel active. I haven’t messed around with MS point specs since the TCP buff but I think <5 Vampyr might be unwise if you want to have top notch sustain. Right now you can proc a micro that hits 2 or 3 enemies, but normally without the cartel you don’t get much from Vampyr on the micros.

I’ll figure that out later though, MS is a lot harder to spec DW than BM is.

#219

I’ve been running this.

https://bl3zone.com/planner/AAC5EM3EP1EQ5ER1ES5ET1EU1EW3EX1EY1EZ5FB3FC5FD5FE3FF5FH1FJ1FL-ac1CJac2CJau1CNau2CN

With the single FiTSD point going into Iron Bank if my MS com has one or more.
This is what I’d suggest as a jumping off point for MS builds.

1 Like
#220

Yeah that’s pretty similar to my DW spec for MS. Though I still take Auto Bear and drop a point in Grizzled.

My green tree depends, but I tend to pass on StE (I have no fire in my arsenal at all) and do this (works great com swapping to BM):

bottomlessMS
bottomlessMS546×946 235 KB

1 Like
#221

For sure. You get all the benefits of short fuse this way. Good point on STE and fire, I have it for my Plaguebearer and the skag den point makes for big Hex DoTs

If I were you I’d cut Iron Bear loose. There’s two more points free for you from specialist bear and auto bear. Auto Bear is lucky to get more than one shot off.