#222

Auto Bear isn’t dying any quicker than M4.1 for me. Lasts the full duration pretty well every time. Enemies aren’t doing any extra damage, and the Nuke still does some good shield stripping against mobs.

The good part about IB being weak – glass half full – is the nuke will usually leave about 1/4 of a shield left with specialist bear. That’s the perfect amount to make sure dual bar enemies have enough left for a Cryo 300/90 without absorbing an off-element hit and being left with like 75% of their last bar. Let’s me go pop pop pop on a crowd with one shot each using my BM. If that explanation makes sense.

Target Softening on the weak arm.

For MS, meh. Auto Bear doesn’t do a whole lot with the nuke really, but TS is still ok I guess.

#223

I follow.
I don’t mean so much that IB dies, he doesn’t shoot enough to make it worth the point investment. But I’m looking at it from a MS perspective, rather than a com swap or BM perspective. I’m glad it still helps.

I strip shields with Shock Hex, Atom Balm and Rad ASE. Gives the same coverage as a IB nuke but also grants healing for all the micro nade vampyrs and occasionally deletes everything when a chain procs overkill and the gets atom balmed.

#224

I didn’t say it was great haha. Though the nuke RoF buff helped. Honestly when speccing for BM there’s not a whole lot of options left with the remaining 3 points after capping both trees. I also haven’t played in a few days now so I haven’t messed around too much. Hoping for some changes this week.

#225

True that.

Doubt we’ll see much in the way of changes this week. I’d love to be wrong, though.

#226

I find IB still takes a bit of agro at least and he can just about last long enough to res coop buddies before exploding so that’s … something i guess

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#227

Once GB starts scaling shields, grenades, and Iron Bear, I think Moze will be in a much, much better position.

I remember in M1.0, I could rely on IB to dispatch weaker mobs or finish off almost dying enemies.

Note: Replace scaling with improving or whatever appropriate

#228

I’ve been considering a spec like this for a flexible GM / Mind Sweeper / BM / etc build. What’s the general consensus in the brain trust here about DiB/EM vs ClickClick/SftR/Forge? Did the CC buffs put it over the top?

This is assuming using Short Fuse

#229

Either is fine, but going to Forge is a lot more versatile. Click Click can replace about 60 to 80% of DiB damage pretty much, but I’m going on a limb here and saying almost everyone that uses the skill for BM doesn’t use it properly and it’s wasted points so they might be better off speccing into Iron Bank or something. Though Click Click is very easy to use with MS too btw.

Forge is a huge QoL improvement for thicker mobs. The damage loss from DiB is decent, but a lot easier to digest now with Scrappy being nearly constant and Forge allowing smaller mag / higher damage weapons with BM. Forge makes Click Click easy to use, and if you’re taking CC you’d be crazy not to spend the points for Forge.

GM benefits from the same kind of build as Blast Master, though it might be easier to maintain GM with fewer points because the com has mag boost skills.

Going to EM for MS can be great too though, but the most important thing to consider is: Are you using CH or the Pearl? Those reduce the value (pretty significantly if you’re using both) of the 20% per stack of DiB.

DiB is nearly a constant 60% gun damage boost as long as there’s easy mobs. Click Click isn’t kill dependant, and it’s usually about a 40% average boost to gun damage with a little bit of practice and weapon knowledge.

EM is great for a single point, but all things considering between CH, the Pearl, Click Click, and Scrappy; Now we’re more or less talking about 11 points investment for EM and that’s not really worth it.

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#230

So to sum your post up: Forge and Iron Bank support Click, Click. And with some skill, weapon knowledge and support from those skills you average 40% gun damage.

On the other hand you have DiB for 60% if you have mobs, EM which was recently buffed, giving quite big aditional fire dmg - element supported by other Moze skills and AI for damage reduction and another 15% damage.

Eeeeeeeeh… I think 11 points is actually pretty decent investment from pure dmg perspective.
The biggest issue here is QoL improvement is huge when going deep into green tree.

#231

IB sort of can, but can also work against Click Click. You want the right amount of points in it for your specific guns and build.

EM is a fantastic skill for 1 point. And it works really well with StE and Mind Sweeper. But it’s not a be all end all skill that deserves 11 points of investment. I’d suggest properly using Click Click if you’re starving for gun damage, though honestly the Pearl can just straight up replace the need for it.

Yes you can max out damage on every front, but there’s a strong argument for the QoL improvements making your build not only easier to use, but it will also increase your DPS. Forge lets you use smaller mags, and smaller mags mesh well with Click Click. Going too small makes BM hard to use so a little bit of tweaking and you are literally spending 11 points for EM.

So to sum that up; EM is great, but it isn’t 11 points great. It also suffers from cases where crits aren’t available. If you’re swapping coms and take off MS for Wotan or something, you handicapped yourself further. If this was a straight MS build I’d say it’s a closer call, but trying to swap mods to GM and BM I’d say Forge is significantly better.

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#232

This is actually great argument. I didn’t think of it before. I was always going Forge when pairing with BM and EM when going MS since they both work great with crits.

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#233

Yeah, kind of depends what your ‘main’ class mod is going to be when you’re building for swaps. If you’re only swapping to BM once in a while, a MS focused build is going to benefit you more of the time.

#234

Interesting to see that people are skipping Stoke the Embers. I gave up on it as well once Scrappy got a buff.

I actually don’t find myself using fire that often with Moze. I think my most used element with Moze is cryo or kinetic

#235

I cant skip StE personally. 125% fire was so good with it that I just cant, even thou I am not using the annoint anymore.

About it… is the 125% fire still meta or fell off with the new annoints and build?
I would usually pair it with a neutral element, especially Maliwan guns, but now we have the 300v2 to use instead.

#236

125 was never really meta. It doesn’t pair well with Blast Master.

300/90 is the best, and easiest to use.

CH is easy to use with the right set up, and the best for cleaning up left over health from 300/90.

160 splash is still great for some situations, but can be annoying to use with 300/90 because of proccing. Usually it’s good for left over health while bossing or SftR launcher mobbing.

125 fire is decent and the easiest to use on its own, but pairing it with 300/90 has the same proccing problem as 160 splash and is a lot weaker. Doesn’t get splash boosts so it isn’t great with BM.

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#237

I used to use it in 1.0 M4 with a Shock/Cryo Kybs. IB was part of my build so I was constantly proccing the effect and could maintain with 2/1 Redistribution. It was good because I didnt have to swap guns, only for Wotan/Valkyries I swaped to +160% Splash.

Also, I always used the Mindsweeper so dont know how it could change the outcome to be honest.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!

#238

I agree with Hurdy’s reasoning here.

I’d make particular note - if using GM, forge is almost necessary.

But again depending on what your ‘main’ com would be in such a setup and what guns you were using I’d shuffle a couple of points for utility.

#239

Most of my builds relating to MS here are based on the BM meta so I can swap coms. 125 still isn’t the best for MS, but it more efficient than it is on BM.

If you want to figure out more about 125 for MS try asking in this thread

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#240

125 fire is still better than 150rad just given the activation condition and it’s ability to stay up for a long time, but it’s over shadowed by CH and 300/90.

I’d still recommend it for builds maximising elemental damage stacking for Harmaggeddon.

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#241

Bonus element weapon anointments are mostly for high Gun/weapon Damage builds. MS and BM are not those kinds of builds, MS even moreso than BM. with BM you can get away with stacking a bunch of gun damage, and then utilize BM to boost Short Fuse output. it’s not the most efficient use of the COM but it works.

MS is much more dependent on increases to splash and grenade damage output, which elemental bonus effects don’t stack with. you don’t have as good of a base to put into the 125 n2m anointment to begin with, and you’re further handicapping your COM output by not giving it an anointment that plays into it. CH builds the base damage that procs are based off, and 160 splash and 300v2 have serious exponential effects on grenade chains. 125 n2m just doesn’t.

additionally, one of the big benefits of MS is being able to run weapons with smaller magazines and being able to reload without losing your bonus. using a proper weapon, you will run out a 125 n2m anointment very quickly, whereas a combination of 300v2, 160 splash and CH will always be available.

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