Not seeing what justifies you sacrificing health gate here. If you want to play Urad, you can do its just not optimal, but then a Bloodletter with 3 DM and 2 TRL is better for your needs. Or alternatively switch to a more appropriate com and reap the damage benefit of both the com and consec hits.
This is what I am thinking about.
Im thinking about uRad because it gives me no condicional or build up damage. It is there everytime I swap to the gun. Also, I get the radiation Explosion and can get a fire/cryo or corrosive Beacon or Flipper and hurt the shields using Radiation damage without the need to swap guns. Also, 150% extra damage seems a lot, especially it being another multiplier to gun and splash damage.
A Bloodletter with +5 PD would allow me to stack shield and gun damage without the need to invest this heavy in the SoR as I found the skills lacking while boosting my survivability through shield restoring.
Couple questions on the tree.
- Why 1 Griz that does nearly nothing? Moving to 5 SSB is just a cleaner use of the point.
- Why 3 PTHP? Are you swapping to Mind Sweeper?
Consec hits builds up so quickly I doubt you’ll notice the difference. That said always on anoints are nice to have. You’re just sacrificing quite a bit of peak damage and making your survival harder in exchange. Going Phalanx is far harder to stack and will hurt more anytime stacking isn’t easy/possible.
Swapping to Blast Master and using Consec hits will give you a similar damage floor to Bloodletter-URad while having a much higher ceiling. You’re playstyle won’t change, you gain health gate, and you do more consistent damage across an encounter.
Forgot to move actually. Sorry.
It is my primary setup, it is hard to not spec. Also, helps with Redistribution and Experimental Munitions proc.
And yeah, CH is pretty easy to stack specially with FintSD and DoT procs. Im almost always wearing the Pearl anyway.
Yeah, I am thinking about holding a 160% Splash for 18s especially for hard stacking moments. Maybe a launcher or the Anarchy.
So are the devs saying that fire in the skag den is working as intended since they attempted to fix ttb and only buffed moze
This is an amazingly in-depth look at Moze. Any chance you’ll be doing similar threads for the other 3 VHs?
Hey, please don’t smite me for asking a dumb question, but I’m wondering if it’s really that bad to move down the shield tree.
For example, the only “real” damage you get out of the green tree is Scrappy and Scorching RPM’s, and while nice, it only seems to add up to 60~65% damage increase (depending on how much you’re critting), whereas with red tree, you get Drowning in Brass (easy +52.5% dmg), Phalanx Doctrine (easy +45~75% dmg), and Tenacious Defense (your shield’s gonna be broken again and again in M10, so it’s preeetty much constant +30% dmg).
Plus, you get a ton of survivability with the red tree, and especially with the increase of lvl cap to 65, I don’t see why it’s that bad. At least it seems better than going down the rest of green tree
But again, what do I know? let me know why it would/wouldn’t work out as I expected
It’s not bad, It’s just not great to focus your build around.
Pearl and Consec gives you so much gun damage that red tree looses value tremendously. Drowning in brass is also so early that it can be taken on every build which is more than enough together with rest of the gear / other two trees.
Okay its probably easier to start from a base tree and we talk pros and cons of going forward in each tree. Though before I do go forward lets remember this is a “meta” take and not a discussion of why red isn’t viable, red is fully viable, its just not current meta.
The base skill tree we can start on is: https://bl3skills.com/gunner/#500311100000050035511401010145000100000
This has enough skill points left to reach either capstone. So lets now discuss what the character already has. Gun Damage wise from the skill tree we have 78%, on top of this you likely have either a consec hits anoint or Pearl, maybe both. I’ll use just consec hits as my assumption going forward, but just Pearl or both reach similar conclusions just with different numbers. This takes Moze’s gun damage to 278%.
If you go down red you get lets say 20% from Desperate Measures, I’ll give you 10 stacks of Phalanx (100% gun damage) and then 30% from Tenacious Defense. That’s 150% gun damage, which when we add to 278% gives us 428%. While a nice number bump the overall increase to your damage is only ~40%, (Difference in multiplying by 5.28 or 3.78). So your hard work that requires you to have killed 10 enemies and had your shield break recently has given an overall damage increase to Moze of 40%.
If we now talk about green tree. The immediate pick ups are Scrappy, Scorching RPM’s and Specialist Bear. The gain here being 24% gun damage, 20% crit, 15% fire rate, 25% Type A Iron Bear Damage and then 60% Specialist Bear.
These are a lot of damage multipliers so lets first talk the Moze ones. 24% gun damage is insignificant, it bumps us to 302% which is ~6% more damage overall. The fire rate boost is harder to quantify. Simplistically we can say its a 15% DPS increase. Which if we compound with the Scrappy increase is a 22% increase to overall damage. On crits it would escalate to a 46% overall damage increase. The difference is slightly more complex than this as that 25% Type A Iron Bear damage also boosts Skag Den leading to about 20% more Skag Den damage.
I’m not going to combine the Skag Den and overall damage increases into an exact number as that brings in a ton of numbers you probably don’t want to puzzle over. The short of it is even on Body shots the overall damage increase of going down Green is about 25-30% on body shots and over 50% on crits. This means the red tree route is only doing about 7.5% more damage (assuming 10 stacks of Phalanx, Tenacious Defense and Scrappy are active where applicable).
Now that we’re done talking Moze lets talk Iron Bear and Auto Bear for a sec. Iron Bear when going down Green gets 45% Type A damage, which if you’re not upto date on the bug reports its important to know that SSB and RPM’s currently apply twice to separate modifiers. So Their impact is 44% for the route going down red or 110% when including RPM’s. When we add specialist bear the advantage of the Green Trees route is 133% in Iron Bear. Auto Bears calc is slightly different as SSB and RPM’s aren’t bugged there so the Auto Bear damage difference is 93%.
What I hope this pile of numbers and jargon so far has conveyed is that going red tree gives deceptively little to your Moze damage, whereas green tree has given us competitive Moze damage and a ton more Bear damage.
It should be said however that I didn’t fill out the entirety of Green. This is because there is a choice still left when we reach:
This is the tree we would have had that I compared to. So anything further improves on the numbers I listed for green. The options however are between going for Forge and the quality of life that offers, or investing in red enough to unlock Sabot Rounds and the different quality of life of that choice. This choice is far more a thing of personal preference, I couldn’t give you a conclusive argument for why one is necessarily better than the other.
An ending note if you want to see the latest in what has been theory crafted you can look here:
Its a resource maintained primarily for the official discord server of Moze builds.
PS: On re read I realize I forgot to account for Desperate Measures in the IB damage comparison. That will bring the 133% closer to the 93% difference that Auto Bear had. Point still stands, but thought I’d point out there is an error there.
It is totally fine to move down the shield tree. I tend to flip the Pris/Rampant/Noot method for building on its head and start by thinking about the gear I want to use and work backwards from there to determine my skill layout and anointments. There are lots of tools out there, like the Facepuncher, Big Boom Blaster, Knifedrain and Cutpurse artifacts, the Plaguebearer, Recharger, etc. that don’t neatly conform to a meta skill build.
No, I don’t play the other VHs enough to know this much about them much less give advice on them.
Welcome back AJ!
Shield tree isn’t a bad choice overall, but the whole point of this thread is to lay out the meta. Shield tree is perfectly serviceable and capable and handling all content in the game with relative ease. But it isn’t the most effective/easiest way (hence meta) to do any build at this point. Kinda like melee hybrid Athena to pure CS Athena.
This thread is great! It took me from being a good moze to a great moze! Thank you!
This should be the final update for awhile now done. DLC4 Gear is in. Plus Ultra and Flare are the only 2 to be brought in. Couple nice things in the dlc, but these are the only items pushing the meta stuff. Mendel’s has been dropped as Ultra is an easy to acquire and better shield. Couple related descriptions were also reworked to account for the impact Flare and Ultra had.
Updated by: @Lioness_Rampant
I just read the guide in its entirety. It looks like I’ve arrived at the same conclusions for the most part.
Last night I did a skill reset and to my surprise after reading this guide, it matches 98% the example Moze Focused skill tree here. I chose Forge over Security Bear. I find Forge to be more useful in most of my Moze builds in the past.
I’m not aware of the Mayhem scaling patches (I was away for 3+ months) but it felt Fire in the Skag is stronger this time and Iron Bear in general. This guide confirms my suspicions.
I got a Multivitamin Plus Ultra btw. It’s sweet and with IB, it reaches 3M hp.
I think a similar thread for all VH’s would be fantastic. We already have TG threads for the rest, but they don’t cover the skills/interactions like this one.
Ok I respec’d to test the build without Forge. Back in lvl57, M10 Proving Grounds FERVOR was all bullet sponge.
With the current state I managed to clear it without reloading. Beacon, Flipper, Manned IB was all my dmg sources. I’d say 50% was from IB.
My point: I changed my perspective on Forge. I dont need it
I dont feel like you need forge but if I’m using blast Master it is nice to not really have to worry about resetting your bonus.
Speaking of FitSD it is fixed now yes? It was doing way too much damage and I didn’t want to use it because it seemed OP. Is it still broken or can I use it now?
It’s still broken ~90% fire damage per point at M10.