GUN balance that makes no sense

one of two things need to happen, either we go back to scale of vanilla game and dlc 1 guns or we shall upscale the whole content to the level of damage of the event guns (vedding/cartel) and dcl 2

today when i get home i will create and compare guns that are pretty much same slot but scaling is drasticly different and gearbox and even forum never seems to address this , why do we take it at face value that some legendaries shall be garbage and especially already stronger ones being way too down on others? is this a sales trick or actual flaw in development?

please post pictures of same level guns where difference makes no sense

brainstormer vs reflux
dictator vs monarch
boomer vs kaoson
lyuda vs sandhawk
anything atlas vs OPQ
monocle/headsplosion vs vedding invitation/unseen threat

so on and so forth these guns are supposed to be doing realtively same dps as they occupy same niche and picking them should be matter of preference, yet there is no choice since m6 exclusive cartel and dlc 2 guns are usually more than two times stronger. ( and do not give me the headsplosion is as good as vedding invitation lol mayhem 0 vedding invitation does work in mayhem 10 try headsplosion omegalul)

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It’s a known problem and will hopefully be worked on and fixed
But it will probably take more time than we would like it to

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i did not hear the developer saying anything at all about this, his talk about smg’s was extremely vague bitch needed a buff since day one same for vanquisher and ripper and it took them the whole balancing department a damn month to look into it? what about regular gun types what about other legendaries if their pace is 10 smg’s a month this game will see no resemblance of balancedish content. how hard is it to look at brainstormer and reflux and say oh wow that;s just wrong :smiley:

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Mayhem Fine-Tuning “Phase 1” Launches Today!

To stand a chance against bloodthirsty Guardians you’ll need some gear up to the task so the first major set of changes being made to Mayhem 2.0 are launching with a focus on Stat Scaling and Gear! This includes: Mayhem Level indicators on weapon cards, balance adjustments to over- and underperforming gear, anointment buffs and reduced health/armour/shield bonuses for enemies on M7+. Various other Quality of Life changes have also been made. You can find more extensive information on balance adjustments and these changes in the full patch notes!

yes i am on top of the news the pace is way too slow and it is not like the adjustments they made turned out to be equalizers 50% dmg v2 can not compete with bonus elemental 100 in any world. and they made these changes simultiniously the words are there but i don see the actions being there.

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I just don’t understand only looking at the legendary items, because so many gun types from different manufacturers are just kinda sad. Things like hyperion shotguns need a global damage buff or mag size increase at least because the reverse recoil, low damage and low mag makes them really sad to use. I don’t see them ever tackling all of the balancing issues wrong with this game with a few legendaries a month. And don’t get me started on offensive shields.

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OH! don even get me started on regular items i believe that legendaries should not be more than 100% better than their purple counter parts but that aside there is massive imbalances

for example:

1.Pistols: COV outperform other repeaters by a mile vladof has either too low of a damage or too low of fire rate to match their cov counterparts dahl is offset by burst fire and semi auto that is not representative of actual fire rate you can use their full autos struggle to reach above 4 bullets per second. meanwhile jacobs mashers and cov x2 x3 pistols are ahead of the field and regular jacobs psitol does more damage per shot than other non elemental non jackobs snipers. and then there is torgue and tediore… generally all pistols outside of cov and jacobs and certainv ladofs (big mag abysmal dmg) need magazine size buff especially dahl maliwan and torgue, maliwan is solid middle ground but nothing remotely as pwoerful as hellshock. make torgue match jacobs in performance, make dahl vladof and maliwan match cov out of these i think maliwan is closest to good spot but melters are bad atomizers and blasters just need mag size, which is general trend with pistols. needs about 1500 or even same as SMGs.

2.snipers as a general class need i say more than non elemental jacobs pistol with ammo pool of 1000 out damages every manufacturer aside from jacobs in non elemental variation? all snipers including jacobs snipers need a hefty buff further more hyperion and jacobs require fire rate increase. maliwans burst needs tighter spread on particle rifles and proton rifle needs better damage since it’s splash is not very “realistically” useful. sniping generally is very hard in this bl game as A.I is scripted to move and hide much more than in previous games and also they are way more animated with both body and head movements. make snipers better than jacobs pistols for lord’s sake. general trend is bigger damage and fire rate for some. proportional to ammo pool snipers need to hit much harder than pistols.

3.SMG’s these have the best parity across the board with DAHL and maliwan being ahead of hyperion. once again hyperion needs bigger fire rates to match competition, for maliwan nebula needs fire rate buff and pulsar needs recoil reduction. AS to dahls low mag size high fire rate variants outperform other options and generally i feel like wolfhound is ahead of the field. as general address low performers and bring them in line with legendaries.

4.Rocket launchers, they are mostly great for torgue and cov with vladof being terribly behind, adjust vladof to match peers and upscale them to match the game’s difficulty. torgue stickies need a closer look one’s that consume more than 1 ammo are usually worse option which they should not be.

5.AR’s these are far behind top performers of other gun classes outside of few exceptions like atals Q (should consume 2 ammo per shot) and N systems and notably dahl PUMA’s , vladof’s that should be shining in this department are only decent if you find shotgun or double barrel attachment, and even then they eat too much ammo for their dmg output. jacob’s are far behind their pistol and behind their sniper counter parts even the masher variants of repeater. AS a class overall i can see lack of fire rate in a lot of them, jacobs needs mag size and dmg buff. dahl needs fire rate, vladof needs more fire rate and dmg, COV are okay if you find x2 x3 variants but generall they need damage buff. Torgue stands apart here if you get enough stickies it gets ridiculous but it is slower than their shotgun capabilities. These AR’s are generally good maybe torgue shall overall do more splash/main bullet damage to discourage always using sticky mode.

6.Shotguns these are some of the best and most balanced gun class in game per manufacturer. how ever for jacobs and torgue high pallet count variants far outperform medium and low pallet count counterparts and for maliwan terminator is ahead of shockwave and cyclotron. i think key here is to speed up some of the maliwans and also make spread wider for torgue and jacobs, all these shotguns are way too accurate to ever consider low pallet count variants. only one better off with small pallet count is again terminator until you get mag size boosts in end game.

i could be writing all day naming guns name by name but i am still not well aware of parts and differences especially for vladof. Vladof has been overall best manufacturer in bl2 but this game i practically never find using anything but underbarrel shotguns and their OP legendaries n AR department. there is something missing with vladof in everything they manufacture, rockets are weak outside of few mortars and big boy rocket attachments, their AR’s are not the best dps machines, their pistols are a bland nerf gun hoses or half dps of COV counterparts. their snipers are also bold average but then again sniper are terribly lacking in this game and vladof is definitely better than hyperion.

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Man I couldn’t agree more. I had even forgotten that Vladof made pistols in this game cause I don’t even see them anymore. Such a fall from grace of their bl2 counterparts like the anarchist. And you’re absolutely right about snipers. Sniping in this game is significantly more challenging (which I love) but with little pay off in comparison to the low damage output, barring some legendaries of course.

I just don’t understand GB’s system for determining what needs a buff. Like before M2.0 was released and they were on a buff streak, it seemed so random. Like the choice of buffing the Krakatoa to such a ridiculous level. I’m glad they’re buffing them, but what about every other maliwan sniper? What if I want to use appropriate elements? I cringe a little bit when I see people using fire on loaders and it still works better than any other maliwan sniper. At higher difficulties, I shouldn’t even have that option.

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think about it we play this game and krakatoa is not even the strongest sniper in the game but how in the hell are we supposed to have any sense of scaling and baseline when a gun is more than 5 times better of it’s purple friend.

krakatoa besides edge’s out on charge up time fire rate 5x more dot and bullet damage. If i only saw this at day one i’d be like what? legendaries are this far ahead of purples? but that is not even sandhawk that is just krakatoa. i do not for a second believe that the patch coming in 2 weeks will reach any resemblance of good base line within the game.

i think maggie shows best how much better a legendary can be compared to purple. Purple masher is a great gun yet maggie is always favorable. so which part is true are purple’s of sniper genre udner powered or is krakatoa overtuned? let’s see krakatoa also ■■■■■ on all other snipers outside of vedding invitation sandhawk and unseen threat (if it’s homing projectiles ever hit?) which scale is the right scale? is it where sandhawk is? is it where krakatoa is? is it where monocle is? how are we having steps and steps of hierarchy in same tier? the lob on one tick hits harder than same level torgue rocket launcher and it hits for multiple ticks of damage fires faster has way bigger mag and ammo pool. what is a scale there is lob in a the right place or is it flakker? or shocker.

how does it make sense that elementally locked shocker does lose out to lob that comes in every element? yes shocker has unlisted triple split like lyuda but the lob can hit a single enemy many times.

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ignoring the titles would you like all legendaries sitting at that 250-500 range or shall they be all brought up to 2000 which is much harder to do, instead of bringing a few outliers down to 500 and then scaling enemies according to that?

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i remember using purple guns in bl2 and doing just fine
cant imagine doing that here

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pardon me i remember using some well parted greens in op10, i am not saying m10 if gbx inssits on million ladders of difficulty shall be open for greens and blues but we have hierarchy between legendaries where monarch is upgrade to dictator reflux is upgrade to brainstormer sandhawk is upgrade to lyuda why are they even same rarity? are we supposed to pretend like vanilla an dlc 1 guns do not exist and never touch them ever again? even if last mayhem level should be legendaries only difficulty it would be much better than what it is now just few legendaries and on top of that lies most proficient anointed damage boosted setup. i would not be angry if this was their intention but they talk about diverse playstyles all the time and we ain’t got it and we can not have it if we have a game of outliers.

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monarch i cant understand at all
reflux would be cool if it had the exact same damage as the brainstormer just with an other element
shocker i also dont really understand
they might just be running out of ideas

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does plague bearer make sense to you as it is scourge+lump? does damage numbers on tunguska and freeman make sense when nukem exists?

plague bearer didnt make much sense to me in the first moment
but then i learned that the added charge is being compensated by the pull and (obviously too much) increased damage
about the other launchers im not into them enough to really compare
i dont usually use launchers
but overall i stick with: they are running out of ideas

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It’s too late man. You would need fundamental change in the damage scaling of all weapons to fix this. Seeing how the dev team never gets it right and creates new issues with every patch/update… I don’t see that happening at all.

To be honest, in my opinion the devs appear quite incompetend. It took me 2 minutes to realize that the scaling of the guardian takedown isn’t right. How can it be that they didn’t realize that something is wrong? How could anyone think “yup, that’s ready for release :+1:

That’s only one of many examples. They don’t test their patches/updates properly before release.

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a couple of modders can do it it is no too late i just want gearbox to get it right, pc community will get it regardless it is just a matter of time. this game will not be constantly hotfixed and updated i bought borderlands to be playing for next 5 years there is no way gearbox will be patching this for 5 years, once they give up modders come in and they will provide far better balance then a whole team of gameplay devs who somehow managed to nerf kaoson but left opq reflux monarch lob and krakatoa as they are and then there is sandhawk. we will get that balance patch in under two weeks and boy there will be huge outrage i can smell it :d

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Oh I have no doubt that we, the community, would get it right if there was modding support. It’s just that I don’t believe in the Gearbox dev team. I don’t think they can get it right. Happy to be proven wrong

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first easy (?) step would be to return to mayhem 1.0

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Yup! But don’t you think there’s more issues?

  • Anointments are just way too powerful. Their impact on the game dwarfs weapons and action skills. I don’t think it’s great when everything is centered around anointments. I would imagine they were originally meant to be more of an addition instead of the “be all end all” of the endgame. Zanes “+ 100% bonus cryo damage” anointment for example is more powerful than anything in his skill tree. I don’t think anointments should have such a huge impact on the game. If you’re unlucky you might not find the right anointment for your character or weapon because RNG.

  • I could be wrong but I sometimes feel like sniper rifles and heavy weapons are not as powerful in this borderlands as they were in prequels. I feel like those weapon types due to their small ammo pool should be much stronger than they are. Snipers more so than heavy weapons. They definitely should be stronger than pistols/shotguns/assault rifles.

  • How can it be that some legendaries literally are 5 x stronger than purples? That’s too much man.

All aspects I mentioned above you cannot change afterwards. People will feel like you take something away from them if you weaken certain stuff. Gearbox really shoulda got it right when they launched the game.

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you are right ofc
regarding weapon tier power, you can always buff stuff (green/purple) and none will complain as long as it doesnt outscale things like the YC did

so if we take the current power level of some legendary weapons and try to move more things up that that level
but if you return to mayhem 1.0 some things will have to be rebalanced anyway, i guess

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