Gunner Community Issue Compendium

Problem: Iron Bear jump-dash is unaffected by the Speed Demon Mayhem Modifier. While the speed buff is active, Iron Bear to slows down when jump dashing

Solution : Factoring the Speed Demon buff when determining jump dash speed.

Now it’s a brake. Handy.

I’ve been looking at Moze’s skill trees and honestly, both Bottomless Mags and Demolition Woman skill trees are in a really good place now. One or two skills in each tree could do with some polishing, but it’s really no surprise that the current Moze meta is to focus on both of those trees. Shield of Retribution however needs some serious help from Gearbox. So I wrote down which of Moze’s skills are the most problematic at this current point in time and offered solutions.


Problem: When piloting Iron Bear, the bonus fire rate from Scorching RPMs and the gun damage from both Drowning in Brass and Phalanx Doctrine, only apply to Bear’s left hardpoint.

Solution: Make the bonuses from all three skills apply to both of Bear’s hardpoints.


Problem: Why Can’t I Carry All the Grenades is a completely redundant skill. Any Moze main who knows how she works, will know that if you can afford the 3 points for it, then they should go into Means of Destruction 100% of the time, because any form of grenade regen will always be superior to increasing the carrying capacity for grenades.

Solution: give WCICAtG 10 or 15% grenade damage per point, in addition to the already-existing increase to grenade carrying capacity. Grenade damage on a skill would be major and it would give a lot of Moze players food for thought over the skill, especially for those who love the Mind Sweeper COM more than any other. It would no longer be a completely irrelevant skill.


Problem: Explosive Punctuation is still a bad skill, the recent buff really didn’t do anything for it. It’s a tier 5 skill so it’s not only further down the skill tree, but it’s struggling to compete with almost every other skill in the tree before it. If you have Topped Off and/or Grizzed plus other cooldown buffs from gear, then EP is a complete waste of skill points. It simply doesn’t do enough for a tier 5 skill. If Gearbox insists on keeping the function of the skill the way it is, they’d have to increase the cooldown rate substantially (like 20% increased cooldown rate per point – 100% total so that it can compete with Grizzled and Topped Off) and even then, it still suffers from the issue of diminishing returns when combined with other CDR bonuses.

Solution: I think it would be better to transform the skill into something more like Fl4k’s Head Count skill. For example: you have 8% chance per skill point to knock off 2 seconds from the cooldown duration whenever you inflict splash damage. A cooldown skill at tier 5 of the Demolition Woman tree has to be really enticing to make players pause and think about investing in it when you consider the range of other great skills in the tree, and this change would do it.


Problem: Short Fuse is easily one of the best capstone skills in the game, but I only mention it because it does nothing for Iron Bear. When people are making builds for Iron Bear, they’re focusing on hardpoints and augments that deal splash damage, not just for bonus damage but also for sustain from Vampyr. Any hardpoints or augments that don’t deal splash, will largely get ignored except for Railguns because of how much raw damage is behind them. When you also consider that none of the capstone skills function or have any synergy with Iron Bear at all, it’s a major impediment for build diversity. At the moment, Moze is the only vault hunter in the entire Borderlands series who has capstone skills which either don’t benefit the action skill or can’t be used while it’s active, and that just doesn’t seem right at all. If anything, it seems rather anti-Borderlands in terms of skill tree design.

Solution: allow Iron Bear to proc Short Fuse with any of his weapons. Despite the extra damage potential behind the capstone, it’s not enough on its own to make Iron Bear stronger than Moze herself so again, there’s no risk of Iron Bear suddenly becoming overpowered – this would only open up more options and promote build diversity.


Problem: Selfless Vengeance is almost never picked except in the most niche of builds that might have a use for it. It’s also the only skill in Moze’s trees that goes against the idea of not having to reload weapons. It needs to do a lot more than in its current state to convince people that it’s a worthwhile tier 1 skill to go for.

Solution: if Gearbox insists on having a skill that demands Moze reloads her gun for any reason, then it should offer bonus reload speed at the very least. Also, remove the 5% health penalty and replace it with Moze setting herself on fire – the incendiary DOTs will allow her to make use of any elemental projector artefact and thus foster more synergy with her speciality for incendiary damage. Any time Moze is on fire, whether after reloading or by other means, everyone in the group inflicts bonus incendiary damage.


Problem: Behind the Iron Curtain doesn’t really do enough despite its recent buff because the whole skill tree is about trying to increase shield capacity and the more you increase the capacity, the less efficient the shield is when it comes to recharging.

Solution: the shield recharge rate is specifically what needs to be increased. The decrease in recharge delay is actually fine as it is, but the recharge rate has to be tremendously buffed further more to keep up with the increased shield capacity that other skills in the tree offer, otherwise most Moze players in the know will simply avoid this skill altogether.


Problem: Desperate Measures is an odd skill because it’s not really that great unless Moze has 1 hp and even then, it’s just more gun damage which over-saturates the damage formula when combined with the other gun damage bonuses in the skill tree, and conscripts Moze into taking a far less commensurate approach to the damage formula.

Solution: convert the bonus gun damage into (V1) damage that can be applied by any source, including Iron Bear. This one tiny change would make DM a worthy investment no matter how much or how little health Moze has missing simply because it would activate a damage multiplier that’s never been available to Moze before. It would also help elevate the Bloodletter COM to a point where it’s no longer in the shadow of other legendary class mods for DPS potential.


Problem: Force Feedback is by far Moze’s worst skill, hands down. 10% shield restoration for a single critical kill is minuscule and meaningless, and the shield recharge is stopped by any source of damage. The fact that this all requires a critical kill in the first place makes it such a completely trivial and worthless tier 5 skill. Why waste a skill point on this when there’s Shield Reboot?

Solution: remove the critical kill clause, it’s so silly and unnecessary and is also a lot harder to pull off in higher Mayhem levels, further decreasing the skill’s overall value. Instead, critical hits alone would work. As well as promoting synergy with other skills like Pull the Holy Pin and Redistribution, you could easily make 5% shield restoration per critical hit work and make it so that the recharge isn’t broken for several seconds, just like how Full Can of Whoop-Ass functions.


Problem: Tenacious Defense has been a problem ever since the game’s release. This can’t be used properly in 1 hp builds because of the absence of health gate so as soon as the shield breaks, you don’t get 40% of it back because you’re immediately put into FFYL. This has no synergy with the rest of the skill tree which is what makes it bizarre from a design perspective. Also, the bonus gun damage doesn’t mean a huge amount due to other gun damage bonuses in the skill tree.

Solution: this capstone skill sorely needs a mechanic where it ignores health damage in the event that the shield breaks, on top of restoring 40% max shield. This would function similar to Axton’s skill Grit in BL2. Instead of gun damage that activates for 30 seconds when the shield breaks, make it so that Moze and Iron Bear deal 30% bonus damage to any enemy with 30% health remaining. This would be a passive V2 damage bonus.

5 Likes

Noted, added.

Actually, ignoring health gate would be a reasonable thing to do for a capstone
I feel like capstones are kinda ignorable in general
They are not strong enough
I have found myself in situations where I made builds without a single capstone^^
With moze AND amara

Red tree generally seem to be focused too much on kills like
When you are fighting raids and stuff
Who’s gonna stack your stuff?
She doesn’t even have a com like Zane
Her capstone could also do stuff like, trigger her kill skills when her shield goes down
That would actually be desirable and synergizing with her other skills

As far as the current climate of Mayhem 2.0 is concerned, the only capstones in BL3 that truly pull their weight are Short Fuse and Megavore. After them, the next best are ones like Forge, The Power Within and Amara’s Forceful Expression.

I’d actually say Moze has the best selection of capstone skills out of everyone. Tenacious Defense by itself isn’t that bad; although it could do with a buff, it’s more to do with the fact that it’s at the bottom of Moze’s least effective skill tree, and it doesn’t offer the DPS potential of Short Fuse or the huge QoL benefit that comes with Forge. Fl4k is a close second, very close to having the best range of capstones but Dominance completely ruins the party.

The only build where I don’t go for capstones with Moze is my Iron Bear build, seeing as none of them work while he’s active. The only other character I ignore capstones with entirely is Zane, on the rare occasion that I play as him. If you’re running a typical Seein’ Dead w/ Barrier + SNTNL build, there’s zero incentive to get any of his capstones.

This is one reason why I made the suggestions of converting the gun damage from Desperature Measures to V1 damage, and for Tenacious Defense to have V2 damage - Moze would have the option to touch all bases by activating different multipliers on the damage formula with her skills alone, and these are from skills that don’t require kills so that they function during boss fights and raids without adds as well as in mobbing scenarios.

Honestly, that’s a good thing. I know people like to often cite Seein’ Dead and Spiritual Driver as the ‘how to’ examples of designing a top-notch class mod, but the problem with them is that they make so much of a difference, that nothing else in their owners’ range of class mods comes close to matching them in performance, which severely limits diversity for both class mod choice and overall builds.

It’s not that bad for Amara who has got other choices like the Phasezerker and Nimbus, but the words I hear from the Zane-main camp are that it’s almost not worth playing him in Mayhem 10 without Seein’ Dead, or that it’s simply too much of a masochistic endeavour to attempt to do so. That to me sounds awful, where your favourite character is practically conscripted into using only one class mod just to make ends meet in Mayhem 10.

Blast Master might be Moze’s meta class mod, but it’s not always the best one 100% of the time for every build in every situation. She has other choices like Mind Sweeper, Green Monster and Bloodletter to a slightly lesser extent. If Gearbox are able to scale Mayhem 10 to a more suitable level for Iron Bear, you could add Raging Bear and Bear Trooper to that list as well. I’m one of those who would infinitely prefer to maintain that range and level of choice, rather than hope Gearbox give Moze that one crutch class mod that puts an end to all others out there.

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cant you simply balance mods like that with the % to activate?

Once 2.0 is balanced even Rocketeer will be viable. It’s worth building around with the changes they made to Moze pre-2.0. I have played an Axton styled debuff turret and shield Build on a M10 playthrough that worked fine up until the anvil where it pulled up hard against all the anointed.

More choice is better than a cheap mod for sure.

2 Likes

When I’m able to play again, an artillery build with the Rocketeer COM is one of the builds I’m working on for Moze. If it weren’t for Mayhem 2.0 ruining Bear, then Rocketeer would probably merit being an honorable mention - TCP getting splash damage helped bring it out of the darkness. But I just wish they got rid of Cloud of Lead and replaced it with Specialist Bear.

If Gearbox scale Mayhem 2.0 more accordingly in the near future including Iron Bear, it might also be arguable that Moze might have the best and most versatile range of legendary class mods out of everyone, including Fl4k whose range is tainted by class mods like Rakk Commander and Tr4iner. Even Moze’s worst or least-used legendary mods aren’t as bad as them.

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Agreed. They’re all pretty even post Moze buffs.

What about Iron Bank and other mag-size increases hampering COV weapons? Or is this an intended feature?

Reviving this from the grave since the Designer Cut update came out and brought with it some issues. Off the top of my head, the anointments for bonus damage while Iron Cub is active and Action Skill Active Damage both end if you switch weapons, and several of the purple tree’s skills seem to have issues from what I hear.

Also, if you happen to spy outdated info in the main list, let me know.

Anointments always end when changing weapons and they won’t come back when switching back
I asked gearbox, it’s “intended”

We need a way to kill IC immediately, so we can reactivate our anoints. Also this would allow us to spam Baby Nukes.

This might also be a workaround to the 200% ASA issue when you go FFYL. But I agree there are some ironing that needs to be done to make the 4th skill tree more robust–kinda reminds me of Rushin Offensive. It works but it’s annoying you can’t sprint as soon as you start shooting.

Also IC needs an attack or follow command. He gets stuck killing an enemy and he wont follow you until he is done or you fast travel. Kinda dumb. Ans because he cant kill, he is stuck. Again dumb.

I wonder what happens in the future
They gave a specific ase skill to Zane now just for the sake of spamming it
I wonder if they will at some point rework moze so the she will have 4 different action skills of which at least one of them will also be an instant effect trigger
Maybe I should sit down again for a full rework^^

Probably but for now I’d say the easier path is once you deploy IC, similar when deploying Autobear, the cooldown should start working. If it’s ready, I should be able to redeploy IC even though it’s still working.

This allows Moze to:

  • proc anointments like Rakks but on a much slower pace but not turtle slow with the current IC
  • easily keep 100% Flare uptime
  • do Baby Nukes
  • partially solve 200% ASA anoint switch issue

I filed a 2K support ticket with all the bugs and enhancements I deemed necessary. Here’s one of the automated response:

First, we’ll try a cache clear .
This works for many issues, so please try it out!

:rofl:

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The whole point was to give Moze action skill active anointment access. Which they have.

You could try giving IC melee weapons, Letting it get up to enemies then using a back burner to destroy it? Give it the baby nukes augment. It would be a quirky build if it worked. Maybe we’ll get a fifth skill tree with the second half of season pass 2?

A few new and old know bugs:

-Visual Bug: does anyone remember the Stainless Steel fuel bug? When you have points in SSB (com or skill points) and you summon Iron Cub it will instantly consume some fuel depending on how many points you have in SSB (it shows less fuel but it doesnt consume any fuel actually). Iron Bear is not being affected by this.
IC duration: SSB 0/5 100 secs
IC duration: SSB 5/5 120 secs
IC duration: SSB 10/5 140 secs

-Iron Cub doesn’t receive Action Skill Damage Bonus from Class mods.

-Just like Iron Bear, Phalanx of Doctrine only applies to Iron Cub left arm (i think its the left arm, hard to tell).

If anyone can confirm any on these bugs, that would be great.

Hmm, so Iron Cub isn’t double benefitting from SSB’s fuel like Iron Bear is. This duration will need to be retested of they ever add action skill damage to iron cub. As the scaling could very well turn into 100, 140, 180 which is roughly what Iron Bear has currently.

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