Hero balancing and changes

Now that the open Beta has come to a close, and many people have had the opportunity to play as many heroes, and against many heroes, in many different ways, many different times. I am creating this forum post to go over some minor balancing tweaks that i think would add to the diversity of the game and help some characters be more playable, and some characters be less ‘OP’ so that people can truly chose to play whatever they like without feeling disadvantaged. If you have any ideas or criticisms of what i think, please post your ideas in the comments, but do keep in mind that this is just my OPINION after playing the game this weekend. I did not play ALL of the heroes, i only played a select few of the ones that i had unlocked, and i only faced off against a few well enough to talk about them. if you have ideas about a hero that i did not touch on, post below. And now, the Heroes that i would like to see changed, and in what way:

Ambra:
Possible the most OP character in the game at the moment. she puts out damage that almost rivals some of the assassin characters, can heal herself and allies in battle, has an auto-lock weapon, and most of all, has health siphon that keeps her at near full health all the time, allowing her to tank even assassin characters. Her health steal from her primary attack needs to be reduced from 30% to 15%, forcing her to play more tactically, as she is not a tank, she is a support. Reduce the effect of Blood Drive mutation to a bonus 15%. Reduce the slow duration from mutation Bask in the Light to 2 seconds to give enemies a fighting chance to escape. She already has great sustainability due to her healing potential from Sunspots and the Flame Staff mutation, she doesnt need 50% lifesteal as well.

Miko:
I wish i could be more helpful in how to address this problem, but Miko is balanced pretty well. The only problem that i have found is that there are not enough Miko players actually healing teammates. They spend most of their time throwing kunai. I have an idea to reward players for both healing and fighting, using a Toxicity system (Like Ambra’s Heat system or Galilea’s Corruption system). more about this system can be found here: http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/miko-damage-rebalancing-with-toxicity/1369323

Oscar Mike:
His ultimate does 3-4 times the damage that everyone else does. The damage of his ult needs to be reduced, and maybe increase the range slightly (30-40% by radius).

Orendi:
Pretty good, but i would like a range increase on Nullify, and maybe a tiny bit more Push from the mutation for it

Phoebe:
Phoebe is supposed to be the LLC assassin, but her damage and skills just dont compare to other assassins. she needs a large buff. other good assassins either have very good entrance/exit strategies, or have insane life-steal. I suggest giving Phasegate a slightly longer range and less windup (time before the actual teleport). this should be her main skill for entering and exiting battle, providing a slow to enemies when entering, and a bonus to movement speed for herself when escaping. Blade rush needs to be given more base damage, and have less Mutations about giving it more damage. change some of those mutations to give it more utility, such as a 1second blind, a stun, or (and most interestingly) turn the target 180degrees (so if they are attacking you, you can make them attack the other direction, increasing your survivability and temporarily disorienting them. Also if they are trying to run away, they are now running towards you. this can be easily corrected as soon as they notice it happens, but is still enough to give you an advantage).

Rath:
well, Rath is a whole different problem. i have outlined what needs to be changed for him in this forum post: Rath needs nerf

Caldarius:
I have not played Caldarius at all, but from what i have seen and from what i understand, he has a very nice, fluid playstyle, and all he really needs is a slight damage buff on his TMP, maybe some extra base clip size, and a slight health leech on his melee would be nice (maybe a mutation, 15% would be nice).

Deande:
I could not play as or against Deande in the Open Beta, but i have seen gameplay, and a slight damage increase on the base attacks to bring them up to par with other Assassins would be nice. Maybe 40% more damage or something.

So this is not a very full list, but i have not played many characters besides Orendi (although i have at least TRIED all the characters that i talk about here), and many characters are locked from level, and this is a Beta. These are just some changes that i would gladly welcome into the game, and if any of you have anything to add to this, or a completely new character that you think needs to change, please do post below, just keep everything constructive.

They already do. The toxicity idea is interesting, though.

If Reyna players are getting wrecked that easily, it may be they haven’t figured out how she works yet. Also, IMO Reyna is a character that is going to excel on an organized team that understands how she works.

I definitely think that Reyna would be a HUGE asset on a well-organized team. Maybe some hyper-competitive team that all communicates. But the same could be said about any character really. I think that Reyna needs to be balanced a bit more for generic multiplayer where YOU may know how to use Reyna, but your team doesn’t know how to support you while you play her.

Miko is technically “balanced”(although he does do tons of damage which I don’t think he should be doing as a support character, I mean he has to be top 5 in damage output) but as the only character with an on target heal, he sort of breaks the whole competitive game; you CANNOT afford to play on a team without him, which just the way the game is right now can’t be changed by anything unless they took out the heal which would be stupid. I think he’s fine as is, don’t do anything to him unless you’re nerfing the damage cause I shouldn’t average 13 kills with the man, the damage is what encourages people to throw knives over healing. Caldarius NEEDS A BUFF big time(just tmp damage and range rly would be fine). Galilea might need another nerf, and besides that I think the game is perfectly balanced, I don’t believe rath deserves a nerf.

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Rath is far from OP and considering you have quite a few things wrong on your assessment on him on the other thread ( you cant have both the stun ability AND throw enemies on the air, you only silence them, to have stun you loose the throwing ability ) i think you just didn’t played with him much, and in no way does Phoebe needs a buff, i can consistently pump out more DPS with Phoebe than with Rath and she even has a viable exit strategy that the latter lacks. Thats why Phoebe was nerfed to begin with.

Most chars are already pretty balanced, except that Ambra is a bit too powerfull and Caldarius needs a bit more ooompf on the DPS department.

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Healers will always give a competitive advantage in games. It is some well-needed team diversity, and yes, it is required to win, but so is having some DPS. a team of all tank characters will be ■■■■. a team of all DPS characters is also ■■■■. I do think that Miko’s damage should be nerfed, now that you mention it, and here is what i suppose to do that (i also updated the main post with this):
lower the damage of his kunai to do minimal, ■■■■ damage. about a quarter of what they do now. Also increase their accuracy, cuz that ■■■■ is ■■■■■■. adjust the gravity on the kunai (the arc) so that they can aimed easily in close range, semi-easily (a few shots to hit) in mid range, and pretty difficult in long range. Increase the Toxin damage to do the bulk of the damage, and make the toxin DoT unstackable, but able to stack the toxin from the kunai and the toxin from the Cloud of Spores. add a mutation that allows one further toxin stack to be applied, maybe make it situational (if target is at full health, only on last shot before reload, etc.). make the timer on the toxin effect simply reset when attempting to apply it again. Then it will almost force you to heal to do your damage, and you will have nothing else to do while the target dies from toxins.

Tell me what you think of that. it isnt perfect, but idk what to change with it right now. also, goddamn, i swear a lot.

Oh yes obviously I’m aware, but the way this game is made(amount of characters) and the way Miko’s heal works I personally feel it’s a little game breaking how good Miko is on a team comp over the other excuses for “healers”(I will admit Kleese got some made chair heals) to the point where you will lose if you don’t have one which will make him instantly banned in a draft pick mode, and if they decide to not do banning and just draft picking then the team that gets him instantly wins. Anyways, sorry for the rambling, but yes I agree with your nerf recommendation completely, whatever they have to do to make him not so strong(I will miss getting so many kills with him though :frowning: but its what must be done for the good of the game)

Ya Rath really isn’t, he is just arguably the best at his role(I would say phoebe and melka have valid arguments for being just as good, if not better due to more escapes and initiates) I think he’s fine and most importantly really fun as is. I think the game is perfectly balanced besides like you said: Ambra a little much, I think Galilea still does a bit too much damage, and ever since the beginning of the beta I’ve thought Caldarius was borderline useless. NOTE: I’m a huge Ghalt player, and tbh the shotgun buff might have been a tadddd too much, I can do unholy damage with him but I feel like this will be overlooked as he isn’t played too much.

Don’t touch my Reyna. At most Id ask to get rid of her laser pistol dmg falloff (and I’m not asking), but no other buffs or nerfs. No need to mess up a good thing.

Those booster shields al level 4 offer a 225 overshield 120 shield heal and a 290 heal to health. In one shot heals 635 dmg to both her and an ally.

I won’t go into more depth but I will say, if you see Reyna - jump, fly, glide as much as you want cuz honey, I’m shooting you down.

Ya I don’t get why people want Reyna to get touched up on, seems good to me just maybe a ult buff?

I will definately agree that they need to add some more healers into the game though. They have Miko, with his beam heal, his muchroom, and all his good heals. Ambra can heal with her Sunspots (and technically her staff too, although nobody does this), and Kleese can regen shields, idk about health. The game needs a few (2 or 3) more unique healer characters. In Overwatch (i know, they are very different games, im just using Overwatch as an example because it has good character variation) they have a standard ‘beam healer’ (Mercy), an AoE passive healer (Lucio), and a unique healer that i dont have a definition for (Zenyata). i would love to see some interesting healer ideas from Gearbox, that are different than ones we have seen before. Like someone that can grant an ally a bonus 30-40% (balancing needed) lifesteal. that would be an interesting and non-direct way of healing. or a melee healer that has a passive that causes a portion of the health of a slain enemy to be restored to himself/herself and all nearby ally. etc. Overwatch has some really interesting healers, and so does Evolve.

As someone who played Ambra alot (Criimson in game on PC) I am not sure she is all that OP. I did do some wrecking in games, but alot of that came down to two factors. The first being I farmed gear. I was running 2 Legendary items and a Rare item. They game me Health and Regen on the Rare and then Damage Reduction (around 10% iirc), Shield Penetration and Skill Damage Boosts. Before I got my shards though I was scared and basically stayed out of most combat situations. The other factor was just using chaos to my advantage. A good player or team was almost impossible to beat in a one on one situation…The fear of my OP worked to my advantage…If you run I will kill you as I drain you as we run, but I cant stand toe to toe with most people most of the time, unless I am fully geared and my jumping correctly pays off.
Take it for what ya will, just my 2c.

Also, just because she can support doesnt mean that is what she is. People play chars to their personal strengths.

Criimson

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Yeah agree I have found Reyna to be an annoyingly good support. While playing Caldaruis against a couple of teams that Reyna as a Support I found it increasingly difficult to kill other players because she would pop a over-shield before they die and get away because she would priority target me which slows me down and makes it easier for her teammates to take me out before I could run away. I have also had attacks that lock on to me because I had the priority target. So I really do not think she bad. She threateningly good in the right hands.

Alright, i have updated the post, and replaced Reyna with Caldarius. I took a look at caldarius’ skills (or, i will, after i post this) and whatever i decided he needs to be good is above. unless it says “idk, just gotta be better”. Idk, i never player him, i never played against him. form what i hear, just a better weapon is all.

Well that’s partly cause Caldarius NEEDS a tmp buff desperately(I know I’ve said that a lot on this post) but ya you right.

Just going to have to stop you right there. Phoebe has some of the highest DPS in the game right now, you can literally melt a Montana being healed by a Miko and overshielded by Reyna while having a sunspot next to him in 5 seconds… okay, I might be exaggerating just a little bit there.

Seriously though, she has crazy high DPS- so much so that at one point I thought she might need another nerf (that being said I think she is in a perfect spot now). You can get over 400 damage on her secondary attack by level 5 and she does ~150 damage per strike end-game. If she gets buffs I’ll be seriously afraid of seeing a Phoebe on the field.

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I never call for direct damage buffs to her attacks, i just kind of wanted to optimize her abilities a bit better to maximize her DPS potential and normalize the spread of winning and losing encounters. Sure it would make her better, but only slightly. it would mainly make her suit her position as Assassin better. Phasegate is alright, and i don’t want to change it much besides giving it some more range (mostly for exiting). Bladerush is, well, kind of bland at the moment, but i think that it has potential to be a good bit of damage or utility.

Miko’s damage doesn’t need a nerf, it’s fine as is. If you’re not paying attention it can wreck you but otherwise its damage is fine. Sure you can rack up kills as miko, but that’s mainly due to dots finishing off players alongside other sources of damage. Also, it doesn’t need an accuracy buff, it’s not difficult to hit with miko, you either need to get used to its aiming more, or you’re trying to attack too often out of its effective range.

I don’t think Caldarius is useless just a bit onderpowered atm to hold solo against other players, i do think he already is a very good support char considering his very high mobility. In one of my last beta games one Caldarius partnered with a Rath and they absolutely blasted through things, surprisingly they form a very good team !

The Rath player was good but not THAT good - i won about 80% of the time i went 1v1 against him with my own Rath - but with Caldarius at his side it was another beast. Caldarius would initiate and divert attention, Rath would silence everyone, Caldarius blinds everything and Rath would finish … no escape cause you wouldn’t even know where to run :smiley:

It looked so much fun that i’m itching to try it out once the game releases.

I for one DO NOT want a caldarius buff if that means they will Nerf his speed. I love the guys speed