#1

It appears that there’s a problem with Hiigaran battlecruisers when they engage Vaygr battlecruisers. Their main guns are supposed to be equal in range. Here’s a video for the devs to observe:

Hiig vs Vaygr BC

You can see the Hiigaran battlecruiser trying to target the nearest Vaygr BC. You can also see that the FARTHER Vaygr BC fires on the Hiig one before Hiig BC can do anything. The Vaygr player then proceeds to annihilate Hiigaran BC without taking any damage, staying outside of the Hiig BC’s firing range. I’m not sure if it’s the engagement script that’s causing this, or somehow Hiigaran BC weapons became broken.

This is causing serious balance issues in skilled matches. There’s basically zero reason to play Hiigaran on medium and large maps.

#2

I think vaygr BC has always been able to long shot better than the higgs. Dunno if a bug or working as intended. I thought vaygr could do well at long range but higgs do very well if in range/ short range.

#3

This problem is caused because of the different gun locations. The trinity cannon is located at the very front of the Vaygr battlecruiser, while the ion cannons are located towards the back of the Hiigaran battlecruiser. So even though both guns have the same range value in the code, the Vaygr battlecruiser effectively has more range (by about 2/3 the length of a battlecruiser).

Because of this, a Vaygr player can micro their BC so that a Hiigaran BC can never hit it. The vaygr player just starts moving their BC backwards once the target is in range, never allowing their opponent to get in range to fire back.

This problem has been around since Homeworld 2, and is one of the two biggest hw2 balance problems (this and vaygr’s crappy resource harvesting). @scole, I hope Gearbox reduces the range of the Vaygr battlecruiser’s trinity cannon in their balance patch. I would suggest a reduction from 6000 to about 5300. This will make it so both races have the same effective range.

#4

Done. Good catch.

4 Likes
#5

Taiidan’s and Kushan’s should be 5300 as well.

#6

…you guys want to gimp the Vagyr Trinity Canon to have less range?

As is, the Vagyr BC is more easily disabled than the Hiig…if you disable the Vagyr BCs engine and Rocket launcher, it only has its point defense guns left (just stay away from the front of the ship). The Hiig BC still has its kinetic turrets + point defense guns, even if you disable its ion gun turrets.

Also, the Hiig BC is able to bring its ion turrets to bear no matter position…while the Vagyr has to point directly at its target to use its Trinity Canon. The Hiig BC EASILY gets the kill versus the Vagyr BC when they aren’t facing each other directly.

Also, the Vagyr BC heavy rockets have a bad habit of detonating on itself when moving vertically.

Also, the Trinity Canon does less damage than the Ion Canon turrets on the BC.

Finally, the Vagyr Trinity Gun misses a lot of the time when used against NON-BC/HC targets. Ion canon turrets do NOT have this problem!

As far as balance, a head to head fight between same upgrade level Hiig and Vagyr BCs (where the Vagyr gets the first shot) will result mutual destruction…UNLESS the Hiig BC jumps out the second it kills the Vagyr BC AND before the final salvo of heavy rockets reaches it!!!.

…and you guys want to gimp it even more? Seriously?

Let me guess, you don’t use the Vagyr = you’d be happy to gimp it as much as possible so you can beat it every time (instead of just most of the time)!

5 Likes
#7

Well doesn’t it seem silly how a microed Vaygr BC will win with no loss?

Hitting itself with its own missiles is another problem independant of the weapon ranges.
Just because X is true doesn’t make Y false.

Vaygr’s problems that make them weak have nothing to do with their BC. Their BC is definitely better. They just never make it to BC in a real 1v1 match outside of the laser/missile vette bugs.

1 Like
#8

Interesting to see the same areguement pop up time and time again, unit vs unit again. I honestly don’t know the best answer. I’ll give two similar examples:

ICF vs AF for HW1. Both givent a flat attack order, the ion wins every time. The minute you put two skilled pilots at the helm of each it gets way more interesting. The ions fire cone is way more narrow than the assault and easy enough to dodge with micro movement. The assault frig is faster and can get beside and ultimately behind the ion. Which is better? The fire and forget, roll the dice and move on to other things mindset of the strategist, or the beat the odds through persistence tactician?

Another was the Ram frig vs the Multibeam frig in HW:C. 1 vs 1 the ram would win. On a large scale unmanaged the multibeams would win. But if you microed the Rams to each attack a single Multibeam the Rams would win. It came down to skill and situation to a point that makes it impossible to say one is balanced over the other. Do you balance to the highest skilled or to the average player? Do you take into account that one unit is easier to use over the other? Do you rewarding skill at the risk of the potential for an uncounterable Over Powered mix of circumstance and skill?

3 Likes
#9

Well said ratamaq!

Essentially, the game ISN’T Rock/Paper/Sissors. Sure, my 10 interceptors will beat your 10 bombers…unless my bombers are at your base destroying it, and your interceptors are far away from the action. Timing, location, tactics, SKILL have much to do with results.

Welcome to Homeworld!

#10

Well in that case we should also make the Hig BC ion cannon only shot forward, cuz the vaygr cant do that or make the Vaygr Trinity Cannon shot 360ª around it, cuz the Hig BC ion cannon does that. lol
¯\(ツ)/¯

1 Like
#11

Oh my goodness. Let’s just change EVERYTHING then.

This is getting kind of ridiculous.

#12

Lol, Kadeshi was just teasing. He doesn’t mean that.

#13

I’d like to point out that hiig destroyers are faster than HW1 destroyers, SOOOO the same situation applies. Do you gimp the hiig destie speed to allow the HW1 destie to catch it or do you leave it as is so it is less of a unfair fight?

I think the values should stay as is, skill should net you a benefit, if you can micro your vay BC better or smarter that the other guy you deserve the outcome. If you are too lacking in skill with your hiig bc that you lose because of the unit differences, you need to work on your skills, whether is it taking out that engine or coming at it from more than just head on.

1 Like
#14

Why? It isn’t like the two ships have identical weaponry. The Vaygr BC must be facing forward, and if the engines are disabled, the cannon is essentially disabled as well. Meanwhile, the Hig BC can maneuver around it and attack from the top, bottom, or sides.

#15

Ok, let’s take this one thing at a time:

First of all, I don’t remember this being so bad in HW2. It’s like Hiig BC ‘hesitates’ for a long time before it actually decides to fire.

[quote=“paradoxnrt, post:6, topic:154724, full:true”]
…you guys want to gimp the Vagyr Trinity Canon to have less range?

As is, the Vagyr BC is more easily disabled than the Hiig…if you disable the Vagyr BCs engine and Rocket launcher, it only has its point defense guns left (just stay away from the front of the ship). The Hiig BC still has its kinetic turrets + point defense guns, even if you disable its ion gun turrets.[/quote]
This is incorrect. It takes exactly two subsystems to disable Vaygr BC - engines and missile battery. It ALSO takes exactly two subsystems to disable Hiigaran BC - top turret and bottom turret.

This point is moot, because you’ll be jumping your BC forward, 99.999999999% of the time hitting forward inhibitor. Also, Vaygr player has plenty of time to maneuver his BC to face yours if you try to be tricky and spend resources jumping your BC to the side first. Inhibitor range is rather large.

Another point to consider here is that ramming your BC sideways into a mass of destroyers and frigates is not a smart idea. Vast majority of skilled fights will happen 'face-to-face".

[quote]Also, the Vagyr BC heavy rockets have a bad habit of detonating on itself when moving vertically.

Also, the Trinity Canon does less damage than the Ion Canon turrets on the BC.

Finally, the Vagyr Trinity Gun misses a lot of the time when used against NON-BC/HC targets. Ion canon turrets do NOT have this problem![/quote]
LOL, how does any of that help Hiig BC which can’t fire AT ALL on the Vaygr BC?

And it takes ONE hit to kill a frig with trinity cannon. It doesn’t matter if 2 of them miss.

You obviously did not watch the video.

I’m going to try and avoid your completely baseless personal attack here, to keep this thread on topic.

My point is that I will ALWAYS play Vaygr on medium and large maps where BC battles are surely to happen eventually. And so will every other skilled player out there.

#16

@rata:

It doesn’t take that much skill to keep Vaygr BC outside of the firing range, it just takes lots of concentration on that single task. Once you’ve won BC fight without losing any of your own, it’s pretty much curtains in skilled match-ups.

Besides, we’re taking about two ships with identical stats (on paper). If Hiigaran BC can’t touch Vaygr BC, no amount of micro, or skill, or anything else is going to help you win.

#17

@Kadeshi:

You’re missing the point. You’re not going to see Hiigaran BC ‘sneaking up’ on Vaygr BC in any skilled game.

Hiig’s firing arc is even less useful in HWR, where backing up Hiig BC actually keeps it facing the target.

#18

Ya this is pretty tried and true amongst the top players. Vaygr’s BC range makes it the favorable race for big maps. While Vaygrs crappy resource harvesting makes Hiig the favorable race for small maps. Thats just how its been since madman-70rus figured out how to micro this range so a hiig BC cant attack back.

Really looking forward to a balance patch that fixes these 2 issues, allowing both races to be strong on any map.

#19

Any decent hiigaran player will have bombers at the ready, preferably loaded inside the BCs, and then those to neuter both the missile battery and the engines, preventing the vaygr BC from using 98% of its DPS.

#20

Maybe even fix the 3rd issue, bugged missile corvettes…