How do I counter Marquis/Thorn?

Hi There,

Not sure if this is the right spot for this but anyway. As a Toby player I am finding it really difficult to fight against Marquis and Thorn in both Incursion and Meltdown (I’m fine against ISIC and other ranged/melee characters) it seems that they are able to take down my shield so easily reducing my damage output (or shoot through it in thorn’s case mid game) and in a straight up fight I seem to get overwhelmed or killed whilst they still have 50% health or more. Just wondering what other Toby players do such as gear choices, helix choices etc. when they see a Marquis/Thorn or both on the enemy team since I’d like to shut them down for a match or two rather than it always being me haha

Many thanks for any advice you can provide since I’ve been raging quite a bit

As Thorn I can pretty much own any Toby. Shooting through his shield at level 3 is key, although some take the other helix option. I would just try to clear minions and drop mines to push them back. It takes a good assassin IMO to kill a good Thorn, otherwise you’ll find success in just pushing her back so she can’t drop blights mid or in your base.

Once Thorn gets a few levels she can 1HK Toby instantly with curse, volley crit, blight, and ultimate if necessary. I don’t think one Toby alone can kill Thorn consistently if she has any awareness at all.

This may not be an answer you were hoping for, but Toby is simply a bad match up against those snipers. If I’m playing Toby, Montana, or Kelvin I’ll usually get one of my teammates such as Oscar or Rath to go and bully them away from me. Much of this game is knowing which characters to stand up to and which to back off from. For us large characters we will probably need the help of our allies to take care of those snipers. As someone who has master of marquis I cannot tell you a time where Toby has beat me 1v1. Maybe someone else has a method, but my suggestion for now would be to either get allies to help or pick a different fight.

I understand that it is not an ideal match up but without being able to see what the other team is picking unfortunately I’m pitted against them (regularly too since everyone has them unlocked) and they seem to pester me when I’m simply wave clearing from across the lane or mid overgrowth so it becomes a sniper battle whether I like it or not which ends up with me retreating/relocating (although I mark for my allies to bug them too - if they respond that is haha). Having just switched from ISIC (an awesome match-up against Marquis and Thorn since he’s the anti-sniper tank haha) I guess I’m a little underwhelmed at how Toby’s force field doesn’t scale or move and I need that against Marquis/Thorn for the projectile speed and damage it seems @asiahmillertime is right and I should aim to just make them retreat and count that as a win.

As a territorial sniper with a large hitbox and critical spot as well he does seem vastly inferior to the other snipers (and ISIC looks godly in comparison haha)

Thanks for the responses though guys they help :slight_smile:

Any melee…

Phoebe is probably the best at it, with her teleport speed reduction and decent damage.

Oscar Mike can annoy them with napalm nades.

Lots of choices, really.

Also… Toby is bad for overgrowth map. His only decent spot is the tunnels. That’s just how it is, he has nowhere decent to sit and artillery.

Mostly what he said. What I would do as Toby when faced up with a Marquis or Thorn I would just get out from their LoS and focus on the other things, like helping out with minions or any other players. Always strafe when firing, and when there’s an opportunity, use your arc mine to get them out from their perch. Remember, if they’re focusing on you, they’re not focusing on your team. Hope that helps a bit.

You see, you can’t counter them as toby, since toby is weaker than them. They work well against everything from far range (like a sniper should) and toby is just like them only he is bigger, and has a larger crit spot, and therefor fails against other snipers. Or high dps.

Not trying to sound pessimistic (well, kinda) but lets face it, the best toby player vs the best marquis or thorn player will never win, because he is the worst of the three snipers, and his ult is useless.

If you want to know how to counter them without playing toby, kiting and burst damage is the key. Burst damage can scare them off if you need to, or use it to get the kill before they run away. Kiting also works, because they don’t have a direct place to shoot or to run towards. These also work against toby, but i mean, you could just aim forthe center of him and shoot. That works too. Very well.

As much as I love toby (rank 15, all but 1 lore challenge done) He isn’t good enough to bee worth the timee trying to play him in pvp constantly. That said, i just recently made a vow to finish his last lore challenge, so I’ll be playing way too mucch of him for a long time. The best thing to do when toby goes against anotheer sniper is shoot until your shield goes and then triple boost away

Toby is basically the weakest hero in the game ATM and you’d be better served by finding somebody else to play rather than dragging your teams down with your penguin obsession.

I went 10 and 1 in Meltdown, he’s not weak, he’s just best in Meltdown.

Your going to have a hard time but all is not lost really you do want to stay away from them though.
Marquis is pretty easy to get rid of just pop a arc mine where he is, shoot him and he tends to back of to get some heals. You can also try and out sniper him just have your shield skill up without it you will lose.
Thorn is a little worst as your shield is unless and she tends to move around alot more. Just dont stay in one spot more around so she cant hit you as much not point hiding behind your shield anyway.

If your against both hope your team forcuses on them if not move lanes or farm shards.

Haha well Ambra is still worse than Toby she has no damage, no range and little to no heals (Don’t worry I’ve mastered her despite all that haha) but with Toby I’m hitting headshots for 1100 early-mid game so he’s not all bad just his ultimate and his force field not scaling… still. But if you have a character suggestion as to who I should play I’m all ears :slight_smile:

Thanks @kenaled but yeah trying to work out a strategy to deal with them as toby. To be honest I’ve never tried the tunnels since I’ve mainly minion cleared and controlled mid with supressive fire.

Thanks @Tonberry21 but some players are quite persistent and will chase for the kill (still think it’s team DM haha) but I will keep that in mind.

@chaosolis from what you have said there it sounds like a character balance issue and one that Toby always loses. Seriously as Toby I’ve only been killed by three characters: Marquis, Thorn and Alani everyone else I can manage comfortably. Far enough I have been trying to main Toby since I recently mained and Mastered ISIC (who was the anti-sniper) so I’m used to being able to out damage and out snipe these two. His shield goes down too quick (until level 8) or Thorn ignores it entirely and I find myself getting one maybe two shots before fleeing. But thanks for the tips.

@puunchbag193 yeah the shield goes down far too quick and in incursion there is pretty much one lane haha thanks for the tip with thorn I’ve been stubborn and just wanted the extra damage from my shield haha I’ll try being more agile or play meltdown like @timtoborne suggests

I think they need to do something with his shield. Maybe it should be a timed expiration instead of damage. That wouldn’t help vs Thorn, but pretty much every other character it would.

I can go about a 2.0 kd with toby myself, however, that is coming from someonee who has had a lot of experience with him too, and who can go 17 and 1 with characters likee benedict, phoebe and S&A. And boldur. And Kelvin. That’s basically all of the characters I have played above rank 5 actually.

No, Toby isn’t unplayable. In fact he’s considerably alright. However, he isn’t as good as the rest of the characters in his genre or category of fighting, and when you are headed up against other cammand rank 100s (not saying you aren’t going against them too) Toby is hard to play against other people who have mastered their characters.

From what I understand Ambra is actually really good, well, shes pretty good, because she supplies people with damage even when she’s not there. Her dps is low because it suggests that you are dealing your base dps (which doesn’t miss) and sunspot dps (which doesn’t miss) which means if you move around enough, you can actually be pretty good.

That said, I’ve never played her. The one battleborn I’ve never randomed.

Whether or not ambra gets buffed, toby deffinitely at the least needs an ult buff (I’d be satisfied if his deployed shield health scaled with his level)

I just want to say thank you for this thread. Instead of complaining and begging for a nerf on those characters, you asked for help on how to counter them.

What everyone else says is true, HOWEVER, since you cannot know if you will face a Thorn or Marquis before hand sometimes you will pick Toby and have a bad matchup. In this case, the important thing is to disrupt them. Chances are you will have some teammates adept at taking care of Thorn, specifically an assassin and if so send them to counter Thorn. Marquis is no different and actually worse because he normally runs as soon as anyone gets close to him.

I think the most important thing you can do, is to focus on minions and try to out level them. Only engage when a teammate is helping so you can pick their health off or when their focus is on someone else.

As a Thorn Main: the only characters that give me trouble are Melka and other Thorns. Both have extreme mobility and DoT attacks. Benedict and Caldarius sometimes gets away, but they usually don’t win the trade.

Mobility is your only option. Little agile buggers give her a headache. If you let Thorn aim at you, you will feel her wrath, her additional damage and DoT will eat you alive. Toby is one of the easiest character for Thorn to dominate, no real way around it.

The problem is unlike the other 2 snipers Toby can’t operate at maximum potential and be agile at the same time. I’ve had better luck not using my force field which as it is Toby’s main skill seems a little disappointing it can be directly countered with Thorn’s piercing arrows (which shouldn’t pierce skills in my opinion completely destroys Toby and Reyna’s Ult but ISIC reflects the arrow haha not sure why it can’t pierce that). As ISIC Thorn was really easy to dominate so I guess I was expecting the same from Toby being the big sniper he is and all.

It’s annoying being forced to retreat every 2/3 shots since the force field gets destroyed so quick but I will find a way to counter them it’s in there somewhere unless the character imbalance is just too steep for poor Toby to come back from.

Thanks for the tip @Brawlerz16 that’s what I’ve tried just 1/2 shots get their attention, run and hope an ally kills them Toby’s only problem is mobility but hopefully his rank 12 mutation will fix that the others are horrible haha. Oh and complaining doesn’t seem to get me anywhere haha you should’ve heard the rage though it was building haha

@chaosolis Ambra is pretty awkward at the moment and whilst I know the damage reduction was justified the subsequent ninja nerfs to her range and ultimate were not. With no slow and the big red pyramid of doom visible for what feels like 5 seconds her Ult is a wave clearing tool only now whilst to initiate her primary you have practically be in melee range. I have her mastered but the last 2 nerfs have discouraged me from playing her with the range being the biggest issue in my opinion. Toby’s pretty good but not as good as ISIC haha as Toby in 20 matches I’ve only died 8 times with an 80% win rate haha it’s only these 2 causing me trouble.

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Hey man I understand. I am with you on the rage part because I think Toby needs a buff!

They buffed his shield to 850 health now so its pretty strong i cant see them making it any strong or else it be like taking out another player. I think making is railgun shots a little faster outside of the shield would be good.
Everything has its weakness pen muitple targets is todys. Shield pen is kleeses. Aoe attacks are isics wards.

Teamwork.

Yeah, it kinda sucks, but they are the paper to Toby’s rock.

Oscar Mike, Melka, Phoebe and several others are awesome at harassing snipers. If they can put a little heat on, Toby can rain death.

If not … well, try to find a spot outside of their LOS.

Well seems how they counter Toby’s play style entirely (Much less Thorn), you don’t.

If your in Incursion all you have to do is have your Melee play stand in the window and bada bing bada boom only effective sniper in the room.