i didnt even know u could let her kill him, i learned that only a couple days ago. probably most people liked jack enough to at least let him talk on his deathbed. i finished him with a good revolver bullet in his head, clint eastwood style
Yo wâsup @ACNAero. So you read this threadâs title, too?
First off, the poll is clearly bias. From my perspective, this bias poll reflects on the person who created it. I donât intend to change opinions, but rather, I am just providing my opinion which is a counterpoint to the OPâs. Take it as you will.
Second off, I believe Lilith can be justified in executing Athena.
[Hereâs a link to one of my posts that goes into detail about my stance.][1]
[And this is another link with more supporting information based on events in the Tales from the Borderlands game.][2]
Thereâs no need to read the entire threads, just the specific posts that Iâve linked. They are a bit wordy, but hey, if you want to have a good, intelligent discussion, then you got to do the reading. I donât have much else to add here, but I can answer questions directed at me.
Late!
[1]: I Think Gearbox Is Prolly Planning To Make Lilith Into A Future Main Villain
[2]: Really, Athena? [Ep. 3 review, possible spoilers ahead]
Ive read it all, and you know what? Pretty much useless. I thought i made it clear at the end that i really doubt she will ever be a villian, and i never said athena deserved to live, i said that lilith made the decision way too quickly, completely ignoring her friends. I wouldnt mind AT ALL if lilith listened to their objections and still decided to kill her. Hell, i dont even like athena, id probably hate her if she wasnt so hot. Im just saying that deciding to kill someone without even listening to the people you consider the most is not right, so its not justifiable. If Mordecai and brick were against the execution they should have pretty good reasons, but lilith just decide to not even listen to them, so no, that doesnt change the fact that she did something wrong and, more importantly, injustifiable. Id rather not give futher details cuz its 3:45 AM here. I need a life.
[quote=âEzioAuditore1456, post:23, topic:1013711â]
Ive read it all, and you know what? Pretty much useless.
[/quote]No, it is not.
[quote=âEzioAuditore1456, post:23, topic:1013711â]
I thought i made it clear at the end that i really doubt she will ever be a villian, and i never said athena deserved to live, i said that lilith made the decision way too quickly, completely ignoring her friends.
[/quote]No, you did not. In this thread, you simply tried to make an argument that Lilith is irrational and cowardly. As for making the decision to execute quickly, I would again disagree. Lilith had Mordecai and Brick take Athena into custody, not to kill her straight up.
Once Athena was taken to Sanctuary and tied up, Lilith allowed her to explain why she worked with Jack. Lilith listened to her entire story. In the end, Athena pretty much said that she worked for Jack for the money, despite everything sheâd seen Jack do. Athena made no real argument for herself to stay the execution. This was not a simple knee-jerk reaction by Lilith. This is explained in detail in the first link.
As for not listening to her friends, I have also stated, in the first link, that Mordey and Brick were not on Elpis when the Lost Legion attacked Helios. Only Roland, Moxxi, and Lilith had a first-hand account of those events. Moxxi even asked most of the 1.5 Vault Hunters how they felt about the murders of the four scientists (their answers were not entirely comforting, to ay the least). Mordecai and Brickâs only insight on Athena came directly from the General Knoxx DLC, which was also shared with Roland and Lilith.
Another argument was also made that Brickâs character in the ending was not consistent with his usual psychopathic and bloodlust nature. Brick is the same guy who murdered Shep Sanders after Shep sold out New Haven to Hyperion. Brick killed him pretty brutally, too. So itâs difficult to rectify these two instances of Brick, one where he would gladly and willingly kill any and all threats to Sanctuary and another where he feels that executing a known assassin, who was employed by Hyperion and who directly helped Jack in his rise to power, is not right. I suspect the writing wasnât fully thought out how Brick was depicted in the ending.
Thatâs purely an opinion, which is fine, but it should not be stated as a fact. Personally, I donât hold a poll among my friends to see whether or not it is popular to kill someone. Lilith had more than enough justification to execute Athena, without making her decision appear to be a based on an irrational whim.
[quote=âEzioAuditore1456, post:23, topic:1013711â]
If Mordecai and brick were against the execution they should have pretty good reasons, but lilith just decide to not even listen to them, so no, that doesnt change the fact that she did something wrong and, more importantly, injustifiable.
[/quote]Please donât present facts that have not been made evident. Brick and Mordecai had no compelling reason to stay Athenaâs execution. Also, it is the OPâs opinion that Lilithâs actions were âwrong and injustifiable.â I personally think the execution was more than justified, while also saying that it was the execution itself was probably a wrong move. Again these are just my opinions, and I have presented more than enough arguments and evidence to support them.
@ACNAero is not alone in his dissent. If the OP has seen absolutely NO ONE having a different opinion, then the OP hasnât been on the forums for that long, or havenât read everything said about the matter. The old forums had such discussion almost on a weekly basis at one time.
The OP is also not exposing any universal opinion. His rhetoric is simply very biased against Lilith. I might as well ask someone, âWhy do you hate America?â whether or not that someone actually hates America or not.
I donât mind fanboys and their waifus, but letâs keep opinions stated as opinions, not facts.
[quote=âEzioAuditore1456, post:23, topic:1013711â]
Id rather not give futher details cuz its 3:45 AM here. I need a life.
[/quote]If there are no details to give, then the discussion pretty much ends on a one-sided note. If one needs a life, then one should not make biased polls to illicit like-minded responses to oneâs stance. Itâs just ego-stroking and does little to nurture an actual dialog among differing opinions.
whether i find it useless or not its up to me. 2nd whether i read it or not I know i did. and 3rd dont be mad cuz someone didnt like the essay you wrote, if you had ANY skill on interpretation youd know exactly what i want to say in this post, if you think i just want to defend athena or diss lilith than i dont know where u studied your whole life, but it didnt work. and besides, if you ask anyone if they hate the UNITED STATES, not America, they can say they dont hate, but they have more racional reasons to hate than to love. im being the racional guy here, im sorry if youre not
Firstly, lets stay calm here. No ones insulted you, this is just a discussion on a video game character. Lets keep things civil.
Secondly, I think you may have misunderstood his point. You make it very clear in your OP that you think that Lilithâs decision was unjustifiable, and ask if others agree with you under the notion that youâre interpretation of her actions is correct and they are unjustifiable.
What SpiderTeo is saying is that presenting the question the way you did shows bias on your part, in that you arenât looking at the possible reasons why Lilith acted the way she did. You are assuming what she did was wrong, and under that premise, asking if everyone agrees that it was wrong. Its kind of a loaded question. Youâre asking âDo you think its wrong to kill someone against the objections of your friends and colleaguesâ and that certainly doesnât cover the entirety of the situation. Emotions were not the only thing Lilith had to consider when making her decision.
Athena is an Assassin who has been shown to have a murderous streak in her. She admitted to working for a man she knew was committing evil. She ignores her own morals for the sake of completing her mission, regardless of whether the mission is doing harm to the people of Pandora.
There is far more to Lilithâs decision than a simple Knee jerk reaction. There were a lot of variables to consider. In the end, it was a tactical decision on Lilithâs part. She and the Crimson Raiders are fighting a war against Hyperion. People do bad things in those situations, not because they are emotionally unstable, but because there is a strategic incentive to do so.
All thats being asked of you is to consider this in your OP. Itâs not as black-and-white as you seem to imply. And if that wasnât your intent, my apologies. Your question does lend itself to that interpretation though.
Also, Lilith has always been a bitch. I donât know where you were when BL1 came out, but she was one of the meanest people in that game. And she wasnât an Angel in BL2 either. She was never a ânice girlâ. Sheâs always had an arrogant attitude. It was just tuned down in BL2 once she was firmly cemented in her relationships with the other Vault Hunters. Lilith is the kind of person who would definitely be really hard to get along with unti you knew her well.
2 Likes
I think my opinion of Lilith changed more from playing her deeper into BL1 (after completing BL2) than anything about the ending of TPS.
This^, to the power infinity and beyondâŚ
i played bl, bl2, tps AND tffbl, so im not new alright? my point is: NO ONE can play with human life. thats my point right there. and if anyone thinks playing with lives is justifiable, then that person is sick. ffs my point is not âshe shouldnt have condemned her to deathâ, but âshe shouldnt condemn her ignoring her best friendsâ
Man what it is about Lilith that always gets people all riled up??
Be excellent to eachother.
3 Likes
Athena is basically Lilith with different abilities. They both tried to kill innocent and somebody/something stopped them.
I was reminded of that last night while running through the DLC.
Clappy: âWho can say that they havenât burned down a church?â
Athena: âMe. Well, apart from that one timeâŚâ
1 Like