How fine a line

Update: Yes, Gal is OP, we know this, im talking about the community mindsets and player mind set more then actual character stats. How fine is a line that a hero becomes OP? Out of curiosity, not trying to start a big angry thread.
Like take Galilea for example, when she gets nerfed someone else will become the “best” hero to play, how long till they get nerf calls?
Or how much difference is player skill / style to how good a character is? Because im more then welcome to say im still learning who i like (Admittedly i like Gal’s style before i joined the forums to hear she was op, i just liked her badass sword and cool evil wing thing going)

So how much is people dying to other heroes their fault? (i feel bad saying this, i mean its a new game no one will be pro right away, and heck some people just arn’t good at FPS. My gf loves playing with me and when she started gaming she was… …er… not as good as she is now)

I know losing sucks but im worried the mindset for most people is “this hero kills me the most it needs a nerf” before its "hmm maybe i shouldn’t run headfirst into the blender?"
Like i was demolished by a Phoebe player in one game, he decimated our team, but ive seen no “nerf” Phoebe, i just left the game accepting that he outplayed us fair and square.

Im in NO WAY saying balances aren’t needed because they are! im just curious since there has been ALOT on the forums about the OP people if maybe it’s not solely the hero’s fault.

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The line is pretty obvious when a hero, designated as a defensive brawler, can go in 3v1 and walk out with at least one kill and hardly any damage on herself, let alone possibly 2 or even 3 kills. And she can do this by annihilating one person in about 2 seconds from full health.

That was why Gal was and is getting nerfed still. She wrecked teams and sustained herself at the same time. Her kit is a classic example of overload abilities. Damage on top of utility on top of CC.

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that’s an honest question. i’ll give you my two cents, for whatever they are worth. deciding whether or not a character is overpowered in a game like this is way easier than it is in a game like destiny. characters typically fit into specific roles. if a toon has abilities that place them beyond a character in an assigned role’s capability to perform that same role, and it is not that character’s role, that character needs to be looked at. for instance, if an assassin character can tank more damage than a tank character, that assassin needs to be brought down.

another example would be if a character in an assigned role can perform its assigned role in a stronger way than other characters in an assigned role. for instance, if one assassin consistently can out dps every other assassin, that character needs to be looked at.

i know you said you’re still getting a feel for things, so you probably don’t have a ton of mutations unlocked for many characters yet. let me just give you a rundown of galilea once the mutations are unlocked. bare in mind, she is labeled as a territorial brawler. some other examples of territorial players would be marquis (sniper who pretty much camps and protects his area. if he gets close or doesnt have his team with him, he is dead). an example of a brawler player is attikus. attikus is good to assist in team fights. he is a scrappy character that just always seems to be great at irritating players.

galilea, with her base shield, can tank more dmg than a level one montana. montana is clearly a tank. boldur has a shield that can do the same thing, and he is clearly a tank. gali is not a tank. galilea, with her 35 pct attack speed mutation, can out dps any assassin in the game with just her primary attack. she is not an assassin.

now take someone like ghalt. ghalt is a controller/disruptor. he is labeled this because he has a great pull, and his traps are great. his stun is not the hardest thing in the world to land with the pull, but it does require some calculation. galilea is neither a controller, nor a disruptor, but with her mutations she can pull without even doing anything, while silencing, and has a point and click stun. she literally has the best crowd control in the entire game.

let’s look at ambra. she is classified as a healer. her sunspots can heal her allies, and she has some decent life steal. galilea can actually heal her allies, though not as well, and can actually heal herself as well. granted her abilities to do these things are nowhere near game breaking, the fact that she has them is crazy.

to top it off, at full health, galilea can actually shoot very strong projectiles, and does an incredible amount more dmg with her melee. it is staggering to think that any of this made if out of playtesting, but it did.

so, to summarize, galilea is by definition overpowered. she outperforms basically every character in every category, with the exception to healing and sniping, and she is perhaps slightly behind a few of the tanks in tanking.

Obviously Gal is in need of a balance, i did say that, im talking in general not specifically

I know Gal is OP, and i understand the roles and how they work, but what about in general, how long till statistics put the next person as top dog? I mean like you said Galts traps arn’t the best to trigger but a SKILLED galt can be a real problem.
Im wondering if people of lesser skill like to jump on a this person needs nerfing simply because they have problems countering them.( Again this is NOT talking about the obvious gal problems. ) Because in my mind a character over needs nerfing if, in this case, she can do things outside her intended specs, but im wondering if its becoming common place to yell it out to anyone who is technically top dog, then to try to improve yourself. (Not just in BB mind you)

I think that’s the question and why Gearbox and others don’t rush to nerf/buff straight away… What’s the difference between OP and not being good enough? Everything that kills you is not OP and every strategy that overcomes yours is not a cheese.

At the same time, it’s hard not to say that a player sitting deep in their own base being able to shoot your sentry is not a “strategy” but a cheese. It’s also hard to look at Gallilea’s tool kit and say that she’s not more powerful than similar characters in that class. Also experience playing the game has led me to the conclusion that she is overpowered, in regards to dealing with her versus other characters. However, there are plenty of people on these forums who state that this is just my inability to figure out how to deal with her and that she does have significant weaknesses that can be exploited. It’s an interesting debate as to what the parameters are for “OP” in the first place and then whether a particular character fits those parameters. Personally, I think she is OP for the reasons given by freddyfasthands and others.

Funny thing by playing Galiliea ive found ways to counter her better, not 100% cause she is a bit strong. Im happy to agree a character is OP if people can make a valid, logical complaint like Freddy and others have but i tend to ignore any “Hero sux they are to op gg gearbox im quitting till its fixed” … (side note, ive seen someone with the whole im quitting but they still post often on the forums about new things they’ve found to complain so you didnt really quit huh?)

Exactly, viracon91, there’s too much crying “OP” and “cheese” just because you lose. At the same time, when numerous experienced players are discussing an imbalance issue in reasonable terms (by discussing stats and abilities v. similar characters/class), I think there is a problem that needs to addressed. It’s disappointing to see the various “this sux, I’m switching to OW and never playing a GB game again” posts, but it is the internet… I would like to compliment Gearbox on how much they’ve gotten right with the balance, in that they have a huge array of characters with widely differing abilities, yet there’s only significant issues with one of the chars at the moment.

i think in general, we probably agree. i have had many similar conversations about phoebe in the past. she was the original person they nerfed, and she was half as strong as gali. i told EVERYONE that it would just create a chain reaction and the next person would just fill the hole. the beta came out, phoebe was made less than average, and sure enough ambra, galilea and el dragon were nerfed, and probably at least half rightfully so. then ambra was nerfed again, gali was left untouched, and then recently tickled. i honestly think that they will not really address any of the main issues with her, and it will likely remain on gali for quite some time.

i have always been a huge proponent of bringing phoebe back, toning gali down a little, and bringing ambra up a bit. nothing better than a bunch of options. right now its really just gali

h this is always an issue. People like to say that Rath is OP because he can knock you up and ult you for an almost insta-gib. Thing is… it’s his ult. Ultimates are designed to make a play, turn a tide, or get something done.

Ambra a little while back was a little too good at killing things as a support. Now, the key issue was she could so easily kill someone by just keeping her beam on them. The damage it had and the range it extended made it much too difficult for squishies to get out of range even when they were sprinting away. Where she is now is good. People say she’s terrible now but it’s that if you wanna do damage you actually have to hit them with your heated melee, you have to when to get aggressive. I’ve had amazing success with current Ambra, I’d say she’s where she needs to be though I’d argue that maybe her healing could be a bit more reliable in clutch situations.

Players with lack of experience who don’t fully understand how to engage or disengage will argue things are imba, it’s something that takes time and unfortunately takings some licks to understand.

For me, and maybe this is just me … A 2v1 should almost always favor the 2 (assuming players of relatively equal skill)

1v1 will never be perfectly balanced, and it really shouldn’t be. This is a team game with a wide array of powers that interact differently with each other. There are too many abstract powers to ever balance them all individually. But once you get that team aspect in there, once you get a 2 on 1 fight, the solo player shouldn’t be killing the other two on a regular basis.

Once in a while, sure. The 1 player could make a great play, land some CC perfectly and win the day … but if 1 person can routinely saunter up to a pair of opponents and kill them, or at least bully them both out of a lane, you’ve got a problem.

And it’s compounded in Gal’s case, as she’s melee, so the standard “just keep your distance” isn’t really viable in an objective based game. If she’s just camping a lane in meltdown, and healing herself off corruption from killing your minions … You’re standard counter play to a melee character becomes the quickest way to lose the match.

There will never be perfect balance between all 25 (and more) characters. So I use the 2v1 as a rule of thumb. Maybe that’s just me.

I personally dont see anyone else in need of nerfing. I wuldnt be surprised if they reworked characters causing them to go from bad t maybe too strong but as is I dont see any. Also, Who knows wha the new characters will be.

i think they’re close. thing is, at high levels, with the exception of gali, ranged and aoe characters are WAY superior to melee. it all comes down to lane clear through aoe, and area control. i think ranged characters in general need to be looked at in high level play. orendi, for instance, is a character nobody complains about. you wouldnt hear anyone say a word about marquis if it wasnt for the sentry cheese in incursion. that is because not many people play the game consistently at a high level, myself included. but i do have some high level premade v premade experience. and i can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that melee characters are next to useless, with the exception to gali. they simply cannot really become strong enough early enough to compete with ranged and aoe characters. the game gets out of hand before melee can get a power spike to push.

killing gal all day with my benedict ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ well theres no turrets or stuff to get in my way in capture.

someone will always be on the top and someone will always be on the bottom what matters is that they are not by huge margins :kissing:

The line is broken when the options of counterplay require several individual players to work together to simply have a chance in stopping whatever character you’re using. With that said there should be no real character that can and does stomp all or a majority of your designed characters, or all or a majority of characters in the same role. Galil for an example offers NO counterplay in a 1v1 scenario and barely an option in 2v1, and somewhat and option in 3v1’s bunch her with a healer and her OPness is increased exponentially. As for 1v1s in themselves sure their are matches where certain there are advantages and disadvantages due to conflict in roles but never should it be flat out 0% chance.
The design of the game or a moba is to be team oriented, let alone any competitive thing there is supposed to be somewhat of an arbitrary fair chance where it is really only you that determines your success or failure. With that said characters are designed to fulfill roles not be gods on a battlefield you should excel at being both tank, dps,ranged carry, support etc (cough cough ambra and galil). So the line becomes quite clear or atleast for me when a character is doing more than fulfilling their role but going above and beyond excelling at other roles too making them cause other designed characters to be obsolete in comparison which is pretty much what makes the problem of OP occur.