Look, for me it feels like a 4v5 because Marquis can COMPLETELY take away the most important thing of that character!
It’s like taking Biosynthesis away from Miko.
Venom from Mellka…
Curse from Thorn…
Toby’s force field…
Benedict’s flying ability…
There is not a single character that can completely destroy any of the things above(Except the force field I guess.), not a single character that can take away a core element from their play style.
The reveal really covers the whole map and completely makes you visible to everyone?
In that case, how do you continue to be useful to the team with Pendles after Marquis picks reveal?
How does Pendles counter his hard counter?
It doesn’t cover the entire map BUT it has a huuuuge range, and goes through walls. Which means the owls can be put in places other can’t see. And it REVEALS you. It doesn’t outline you, it reveals. You get pulled out of cloak, suddenly move slower than a snail carrying a turtle, and everyone who can see you can kill you easily because if you use smoke bomb, the owl will instantly reveal you again. But really, when he places 3 owls the only place you’re safe is your own base, because the Marquis will be smart enough to make sure you can’t cross enemy territory without getting revealed.
What a GREAT question.
The owl reveal radius and Orendi’s nullify reveal radius are too damn big. By a long shot. This was my gripe when Pendles was released and nothing has changed in this dynamic so I’m sticking to this opinion
Shard gather, build, attack minions, throw stars, hunt owls (their not hard to see, they phase through walls if put too close), take the long way around and stalk marquis (he won’t see you when your behind him and zoomed in), back up your team mates in fights.
Change your tactics for once instead of 100% relying on his stealth and then claiming something is broken when it no longer works.
I’ve played Pendles with Marquis in game, it’s difficult, but doable.
Not every character has a hard counter. Actually, almost none of them do.
Ghalt vs Kleese is bad for Kleese, but doesn’t remove him from the game. Montana vs Ranged DPS is bad, but he can still fight back. Healer vs Wounder can be rough, but not unbeatable.
There’s tons of soft counters, but the only hard counter is Marquis vs Pendles. Just by having Marquis be on the enemy team, Pendles has SIGNIFICANT trouble succeeding.
…and almost everyone picks the reveal. Counter all cloaks and/or get huge amounts of assist XP just for having an owl somewhere? Yes, please!
I’m not sure if you’re saying Marquis doesn’t need the reveal to help, or if Pendles doesn’t need the cloak to help, but Marquis obviously doesn’t need to reveal.
As for Pendles… well, try to play Pendles by meleeing every now and again to pop his cloak off and tell me how well it goes for you.
So if the Marquis isn’t vigilant about restoring his owls than Pendles is good to go? There must be some opening to attack after destroying one.
What mode are we talking about because in Meltdown Marquis can’t really be everywhere, definitely he can’t in face off/ capture. Incursion has alternate routes he must shut down which leaves himself vulnerable.
Maybe we can find a way to kill Marquis together instead of asking the devs.
In Meltdown, he can put his owls up high somewhere on both lanes and Pendles is doomed.
In Capture/Face-Off, the maps are small and the owls see through walls, but Pendles still definitely has a better chance here.
In Incursion, the long line of sight of the owls will make Pendles revealed long before he gets close enough to find another avenue of approch. Overgrowth and Echelon are much worse about this than Monuments. Pendles can avoid the owls and backstab Marquis on Monuments, but will have a VERY hard time on any other map.
Thanks, i meant pendles doesn’t have to cloak
There is no counter in the game remotely as hard as how Marquis counters Pendles. There’s no precedent or justication for it. It doesn’t take a “really good” Marquis to pull this off and reveal is level two on the damn helix. All they have to do is drop a few owls a lil back from the action, glance at the radar now and then, and they will destroy you. It isn’t a counter like any other. The lack of LoS means the owl can be placed in an unassailable position while revealing Pendles across half the bloody map. It completely nullifies Pendles’ cloak offensively and it therefore pwns his entire offensive toolkit, pwning Pendles’ ability to keep up in levels. It takes Pendles out of the game. Worst, it turns Pendles into the slowest, squishiest, easiest free xp in the game, even if he’s just trying to defend. It’s worse than 4v5 because the interaction turns him into a xp feast.
To the people saying hunt the owls or focus the Marquis: this puts you behind enemy lines, often uncloaked, lit on the radar as an easy target and unable to cloak via Smoke Bomb. It’s fine to suggest it but owls don’t give xp… so now we have a Pendles moving at half-speed, vulnerable, not getting much xp and therefore not leveling at the rate they should. If the teams are remotely balanced, it’s not doable.
No other character interaction is so potently one-sided. Subtle, subjective, situational counters are fine. A character-breaking counter like this is asinine when you can’t change your character. It makes Pendles non-viable in competitive play. Pendles is already effectively countered by tight play, his cloak is easy to see, he often gets status effect animation glitch, and he shouldn’t be able to 100-0 anyone 1v1 to begin with. Another effective counter? Sprinting for a second or two when you hear the unmistakable snake sound effect when he attacks. There are lots of normal ways of dealing with Pendles… he doesn’t need a no-skill, broken counter like Houdini.
So, basically you just need to barely help out in the match by doing things that don’t fulfill Pendles’ role as stealthy assassin/saboteur? It’s a decent way to cope, but it doesn’t really qualify as a way for Pendles to help his team win.
This doesn’t work on most maps. It can do well on Monuments and Outback, where there is plenty of cover for Pendles.
If Pendles tries to sneak up behind Marquis, he can do some damage and knock Marquis off his perch, but all Marquis has to do is pop an owl where it can’t target something or ping for a teamate to focus Pendles and he either can’t escape and will die, or dies quickly.
When helping in team fights he becomes much more opportunistic than he already is, only being able to fight while allies are near and Marquis is somewhere else. If Marquis shows up, or they focus Pendles (who is an easy target) he’ll get wham blame kablammed.
“Yo Montana, pop that owl for me will you? Thanks”
Thorn is predictable as hell jumping so high, and slowing her gets rid of it, orendi depends on a reveal (reveals need some work anyway)and a good pendles waits for those pillars to be cast,mellka sliding is not an issue, especially without air stall, lastly miasma makes it worse and pendles has the easiest time with melee crits
Fixed
Well I use his legendary to be honest, with a slow it is usually easy to take down them fast low health characters, miasma basically gives them no chance of winning
I get the feeling this is a matter of opinion and neither will reach a point of agreement, so I’m just going to disengage. shakes hand walks into a lake
Agreed
@theavarchivist You’re looking at this from the wrong angle. Marquis has already had his damage nerfed severely. He can no longer depend on just his rifle to reliably put down battleborn let alone minion waves. HIs birds, while tacitly useful, have become a large part of his overall damage and their homing is the only reliable way he has to fend off the faster characters. So when he’s dropping them liberally behind his team out of the action and letting them do nothing but counter Pendles, Pendles is effectively countering Marquis damage output right back. It’s a trade off.
As for owl hunting, you do realize Pendles has a ranged attack do you not? It’s not nearly as useful as his main, but he’s not defenseless when he can’t get close enough to melee.
Also, yes, there is one character counter that is just as bad as Marquis is to Pendles. It’s the way Ghalt counters Kleese. Kleese the territorial shield ball that depends on positioning. Also the Kleese who is one of the simplest targets in the game to hook and pull out of that position. It’s bad, and always requires using alternate tactics.
It ain’t a tradeoff shutting down a character completely does NOT make Balance because they were nerfed, it is unfair to pendles and the team
Kleese actually can adapt to ghalt and be fair you are comparing soft and hard counters