HW1/HW2 - Code/Engine changes discussion

The problem of course being different ships in th same class have different flight profiles, vastly so in some cases. I can only see it working if all ships take on the characteristics of the slowest and least maneuverable of all the ships you have selected, if that is even possible.

A total rework of HW2 strike craft will be needed or they will bleed RUs like there’s no tomorrow. It’s currently (loosely) balanced around those ‘free’ reinforcements.

EDIT: Got ninjaed by BitVenom, :stuck_out_tongue:

I am excited to try this out.

You did! BUT - I appreciate that you can see the same issues. We’re talking about this before doing it to look for other holes or troubles. As well, ideas to tweak or massage this work before we start it are useful - they may shift the focus. The end result is really important to all of us. We take the task of getting a great cross-game balance (and getting MP out of beta) very, very seriously. Plenty of assertions that we don’t care or have abandoned the project have been made (here and elsewhere) - which couldn’t be less true.

Would that Replace the current single ship build option or would it be an either or thing ? I’m thinking when you need to add just one’s and two’s to replace losses for example.

How do you think these overall changes will impact on some of the more problematic formations like sphere ?

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Will the official GBX balance mod showcase the new squadron mechanics?

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I don’t think we’ve locked how it would work - the default builds would mirror those of HW2 types (sets of 5/6/7/etc) - because that has positive impacts on how the AI evaluates the work it does too (it thinks in terms of HW2 cost/yield). But certainly a key modified or UI option to single build would be possible even if we didn’t put that in right away (lots to do for this one).

Some formations are just problematic. Sphere is the most obvious. I think we’d tackle refinements to that one (in particular) a bit later, after these changes were refined and locked. I don’t want to ignore it - but we have to stage our edits to not confuse the results of each editing pass. I hope when we’re all happy, Sphere is one of the things that everyone is happy to have seen positive edits for.

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If Homeworld 1 fighters and corvettes are built in squadrons, then that doesn’t mean they JUST come out like Homeworld 2 ships, it means something else, too.

You LOSE THE ABILITY to build just one ship. So my questoin is, how important is that to gameplay? Is it tactically advantageous to be able to build just one, two, or three ships instead of an entire squadron?

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This will be prproblematic. By saying all this we can assume that there won’t be a possibility of fixing corvette behaviour and even if that was done the current proposal would mean that formations such as wall will not be working at all - of course assuming that support frigates will be able to heal corvettes without leaching to them.

Also using sphere formation wouldn’t make any sense. The whole process of making our own formations will just differ on which I find more appealing to my eyes when my fighters are flying around or standing by. Because nothing will change with combat if I understood corcorrectly.

Since neither of issues would work it’s better for hw1 races to just build squadrons and leave it as this. Not worth the time and effort for something that will never work as intended.

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No, not necessarily - see my response to jim1…

Would this change affect the way that things like setting Sphere formation then issuing an attack command causes a sphere to be formed next to the target, rather than putting the sphere of attackers around the target (similar for guard commands)?

There are many issues we can talk about. But you use the word ‘assume’ far too much - please don’t ‘assume’ anything. This post is about one set of changes and issues. Other issues will likely exist and be addressed - no need to view this conversation as somehow invalidating other adjustments. Indeed that is not the case.

Thank you for your ‘no confidence’ vote - I look forward to working to make the game perform/act better in spite of your cynicism. You could help by making constructive suggestions towards the topic at hand instead of dismissing the effort outright.

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We’re not talking about other mechanics/behaviors - which isn’t to say we aren’t also going to address those. This is just the current topic and set of changes we want to gauge the impact of.

Our replies are so close together, I didn’t see it until I posted.

I could live with building ships in squadrons so long as they can leave that squadron and become single ships. So I’m fine with this proposal so far. I’m happy to see it also knocks out the free replenishment of fighters.

But certainly a key modified or UI option to single build would be possible even if we didn’t put that in right away (lots to do for this one).

What about adding a boolean flag in the ship tuning file that defines whether a ship single or multibuilds by default?

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@BitVenom How far off do you think you are from a few test runs of these changes ? a little rough footage of how ships would move and fight together would give us a better frame of reference and should help the feedback .

Sorry MechWarrior001 wrong reply button :blush:

I wasn’t cynical. I’m just writing my concerns. That’s all. Like everyone else here I’ve been analysing various fixes and I’m just sceptical. This is not an outcome that I anticipated. I have hope and be sure that will test everything in order to give you feedback required to balance the game.

If I may suggest maybe pasting some of the problematic code would be helpful with those layers. I bet that someone could give any possible hints, directions on how to approach it.

Anyways good luck :slight_smile:

That will be something we need regardless. If not for us but for Mods, etc. Plenty of ships will never be allowed to group build (salvage/repair ships don’t handle multi-unit squadrons correctly at all).

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I believe according to what BitVenom has said this is in the concept stage, no changes yet, trying to find any possible issues they can address before working on this. The last two weeks they were trying to get strike groups working how formations were working in HW1 but it didn’t work (see bad news) but they think working on squadrons could get where everyone wants to go (see good news) so they are asking us for help brainstorming possible pirtalls.

I am not allowed to promise things that aren’t done. ‘Not far’ is about as granular as I can get. Next week we’ll have some stuff in-house to play with - but that’s not at all a promise/comment about when we’d release these changes. Sorry, gotta be careful when we talk about ongoing/incomplete work.

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Ok thank you for the clarification. I was just unsure what the scope of this behavior change was.

Overall, it sounds like it could be an ok compromise to the issues that people have been seeing with strike craft formation behavior. I’m at least willing to give it a shot and see how it plays.