HW1/HW2 - Code/Engine changes discussion

If I would like a new experience, I would want a new Homeworld 3, with all new up to date, from 21 century, features, not a old, but repainted, not reaching my expectations for a new installment, 2.5 version.

May be your exigence level does not match the mine. HWR was announced as a Remaster, and I want this that was announced.

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Right & wrong… As stated above nothing changes… Addions are additions. They have no inpact on the game if you play with the classic dm settings… but the more that is possible with the engine the more and easier can people create fantastic mods with the new possibilities. Besides you still got the classic to play with and unlike with hw1 the classic and remastered edition are almost identical… Including the graphics…

Even HW1C included in HWR is not the old HW1, not without the LAN play. Even when they said that HW1C and HW2C would be included without changes.

And I’m not against changes in the engine, but only if those are included to facilitate or to give more possibilities to modders, without modify the essence of the games. I can’t stress this enough, I want a new experience, yes, but I want this new experience in a future HW3.

So, if you want to try fix all / some features that are lacking on HW1R, go ahead, but, please, do not break the essence of HW2R, this, almost, is as all people remembers HW2; please, do not alienate two groups of people instead one, do not angry a group of players trying to please another one; you would end with two angry groups at the end. Almost left the possible changes as an option that may be toggled on / off, so every one would get the experience that they choose.

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as a hw1 guy, i would get no pleasure is breaking what is essentially a working version of hw2. you hw2 guys love your game as much as we loved ours. you guys got what you paid for, some of us feel like we didn’t.

i would be all for a hw2.5, i think most of us can agree that something new to play with would be awesome… but it has to include the magic of the original hw1 and hw2 versions.

us hw1 guys loved the micro-ing of fighters and vettes. imagine if the hw2r took away frigate kiting and squad replenishing. to us hw1 guys, this seems to us like formations and hw1 tactics seem to you. if we all came together and cooked up something we could all enjoy, this community was rush right back in. the only way that is going to happen is if everyone gives in a little.

if all else fails… we could crowd-fund exactly what we want, and release it for free. i’d build it myself if i had to. i actually rebuilt some simple movement mechanics from scratch just to see how hard it would be. it’s not hard at all, i did it in less than a day. i think what is making things a bit tough for GBX is they are working with something so old, so over-classed and fragmented, that it makes changing things 95% figuring out what the heck was going on behind the scenes, and 5% actual progress.

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Im a long time Homeworld 2 fan and online player. At first reading this thread i was totally against the idea of removing docking micro and refused to give the whole Hw1 fighter mechanisms a second thought. I had afterall never played Homeworld 1 and liked hw2 the way it is

Then I did this…

I started an Original Homeworld 1 Mission and used my scouts in claw to destroy the enemy probes in the mision 1 tutorial…and zomg…the way the fighters behaved was awesome. I could do ALOT of micro with this. The way they strafe is incredible. It probably looks less realistic , but from a gaming dynamic point of view it allows for more controlled micro.

I then start a Remastered Homeworld 1 Mission , exactly the same thing. I put my scout in claw to destroy the enemy problems and yup they behaved stupid. Like my formation just breaks and they do this inny outy thing that happens in homeworld 2.

…Id like to maybe see the Homeworld 1 fighter mechanisms brought back in for Homeworld 3. Infact , maybe its worth the Homeworld 2 crowd , looking into this , rather then dismissing it.

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Dude, watch the video closely in this thread.

The dogfight mechanics that is in the engine, just never implemented trumps the look of HW2 and HW1. Let’s replace both with something better!

There’s Shallow Space coming out. I’m probably going to a space RTS later this year. But to remake HW1?.. Why? HW1 source code was released and new builds based on it are out there to play if that’s what you really want.
I want to have HW2 and HW1 together working nicely. New games should be actual new games, though.


Oh yeah I forgot to mention these don’t have the issues that HW1 did with large formations, or formation reshuffling when ships die in them. Like, you really shouldn’t want something exactly the same as HW1s as it had its own issues.

If you do a large formation, they will split up when they have to instead of ships like slowing down to keep formation, but then they regroup when they can. It has the potential to be better than HW1s.

It is still beneficial to make 2 or 3 groups though, because you create more chances for one group to shoot the tail of another.
I just didn’t have enough time to record more examples of stuff.

That is your opinion. There are those of us who, seeing Homeworld Remastered written on the figurative box, wanted exactly this. You ask why HW1 should be remade as if that wasn’t what got a very large part of us excited about HW:RM. What you want doesn’t take precedence on other’s wishes, and the desire for an authentic hw1 experience has been strongly expressed in the fanbase for the last month.

Yes, a multiplayer way to make hw1 and 2 play along nicely would be cool. But to tell those of us that want a remastered hw1 experience to go to do it ourselves since we have the code isn’t very respectful. Nor legitimate.

Edit : you make technical points that are valid regarding the MP experience with the current state of the HW2 AI logic. But there’s also no justifiable leap in logic that gives you the right to say that HW1 players should just “create a new MP service for HW1 yourself”. Please respect the rightful wishes of others :smile:.

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You aren’t going to get that, though. You can wish for anything, but impossible wishes don’t come true.
HW1 can not be remade in the HW2 engine.

All you can hope for is that they make something similar that’s largely better at least in many ways
I don’t really get why people want it remade with all its bugs and flaws when they could just play the original game.

And I guess I was a bit wrong about making a new build with a MP service, because the license agreement only allows you to redistribute source code. To play that, someone has to compile it themselves, which would deter over 99% of people from actually getting to use it. And it still needs a game disk because it didn’t include the DATA files.

Anyway, I’m just being realistic, here.
It would at least be nice if they reenabled the LAN button. That’s a realistic thing to ask for.
And it’d also be nice to allow redistributions of HW1 builds so long as they’re non-commercial, not that anyone is likely to even do that.

yeah, i think the real issue is you have a bunch of guys, just trying hard to hold on to the possibility this will all work out for the best. my heart says, ‘hang in there’, but my brain is telling me to let it go and move on.

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There are literally thousands of old games you can no longer play online. Sucks, but it’s how it is and that’s not GBX’s fault.

It’s a shame it happened to HW1. You still can with the original game and using Hamachi and things like that.
It would be nice if the LAN option were still there, and the license agreement on the HW1 source weren’t so pants, but when it comes to HWRM the most people can ask is just for GBX to try their best with it.
No one can expect it to work exactly like before. Would you want them to replicate all the bugs and just janky and wonky behavior too, when it could be better?

You saw that dogfight video, right? It’s not the same as HW1, but it has the potential to be better. In HW1 you couldn’t (well, shouldn’t) make large formations because of weird things that happened, but here it works fine.

Don’t misunderstand, I agree with you in that I have realistic expectations of what is achievable with the HW2 engine. I was saying that it is unreasonable to tell us that we shouldn’t even have expected a HW1 remaster or at least hoped for Gearbox to put some effort into it after release.

I did, and that was my basis for saying that you had a point about the ship AI in HW2. Even if branching behaviour based on game modes was implemented (which it probably will), what is there right now can’t do the trick. Making ships stick to formations doesn’t change the fact that their combat manoeuvring isn’t HW1’s and it’s only part of a larger systemic problem. But we knew that.

The point is that we don’t know what can be done with a realistic amount of work. We don’t know if they’ll pick their battles and choose to leave frameworks in place for modders to do the rest, we don’t know if there isn’t an easier way to make old AI work. You demonstrated that the HW2 dogfighting pattern was broken, it was very obvious in the case of corvettes deadlocking each other in turning battles. But we can only hazard guesses as to how hard this is to fix across the entire game. I agree with the common sense that it’s no cakewalk given that no HW1 code can be salvaged outside of knowing the logic.

But we can’t say that it’s impossible and leave HW1 broken without even trying to evaluate various solutions. That’s what BitVenom and other are working on, formations being one of many frontlines. I’m not of the opinion that HW1 gameplay should be just given up on because it isn’t supported out of the box by the HW2 engine.

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Any link to binaries ready for Windows, please?

I’m developer, and many times I stay at work for long hours, I know when I start every day, but I don’t know when I will be able to return to home.

So, the last thing that I want to do at home is having to configure another development environment -I bet that in Linux- and have to compile some source code with 1001 dependencies.

Sorry dude, but, at home, I want direct fun, just click over an exe, and this is… I have already enough dev problems at work.

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Who said that we want the bugs in there?, we want the same exact experience (game play) as the original developers were envisioning at the time, and if it is without the, not intended, flaws, better.

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no lunch for free…but many possiblities :smile:

I would be happy to see HW1 ships in squadrons. I really don’t care about individual ship building - I would be fine if all HW1 strike craft were just remodeled HW2 ships with the appropriate AI.

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Bite your tongue, maybe you didn’t play HW1 so a swarm means nothing to you but I want to see it back. I sucked at it but I still want to see it make a return.

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That would make the game even more RPS than it is now. Swarms of fighters would lose even faster to swarms of corvettes/flaks, swarms of bombers would take out frigates and DDs in one volley, and walls of torpedo/assault frigates would wreck corvettes.

The entire damage system would need to be revamped back to the classic style, where a full volley from a HC did 25% damage to a frigate and a corvette could survive an ion frigate hit.

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You say that like its a bad thing :slight_smile:

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The purpose here is not to debate whether the HW1 mechanics are superior, but to restore them for the sake of retaining the original game’s gameplay.

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