HW1 - Ion cannon frigate USELESS!

Well, now we don’t need to research ion cannon to get destroyers, so we can totally skip that.
The problem is that now there is no reason at all to research ion cannon frigates, let’s see:

Ion Cannon Frigate Research:
Cost - 1000 RU
Time - 2:22

Super Capital Chassi:
Cost - 1300 RU
Time - 2:05

Why would I ever research an Ion frigate? It is just pointless!@

I have already pointed out how frigates are just HORRIBLE in this remake (no, for hw1 this is not remastered):

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/homeworld-1-frigates-deep-analysis-about-upgrades

Let’s not forget that a single destroyer (1800 ru cost) can bring 5 ions frigates down (4500 ru cost):

And with this reasearch tree method it is pretty much non sense to even research them, you can get WAY better ships faster with just a little more

So plx gearbox, buff up those frigates (suggestion in the topic linked above), and redo the research tree to fit ions in, i would say cut of both of those researchs times by 50% and bring down the cost of ion research to 500 and the super capital ship to 1200.

But ions are not the only problem, assaults are pretty bad as well:

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/kushan-taiidan-assault-frigates-are-very-underpowered

And Supports are doing their role poorly

http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/support-frigates

HW1 frigates need some love.

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I cannot like your post enough.

LOL

At the risk of sounding like a broken record to a lot of people, I’m going to repeat myself again about examples like these. Welcome to HW2 balancing which really needs to be changed, where the RU efficiency of capital ship tech jumps up immensely from frigate to destroyer and destroyer to cruiser making ships like ion cannon frigates obsolete in mid/lategame.

This is not rock, paper, scissors and it never has been since the day HW2 was released. It is rock, paper, scissors, bomb, nuke.

Yeah, I can testify that playing as Taiidan/Kushan in multiplayer and choosing to tech towards Ion cannons instead of destroyers often leads to me losing to attrition in RU kills/losses.

The fact that I can churn out ion cannon frigates from both my carrier and MS did not matter if my opponent had teched to destroyers since, as Kadeshi pointed out, the killing efficiency of destroyers (and cruisers) above frigates completely trumps whatever production advantages you gain in choosing ion frigs over dessys.

I’d say that even if you cut down the research time to 50% for both techs and made Ion cannons a prerequisite for large capital ships, ICFs would only remain relevant for that small time you are waiting for destroyer tech to finish researching. This kind of comes back to the question of “How do you make certain ships relevant in late game other than maxing fleet cap?”

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Yeah, i agree, they would fit in only in that small window, the real solution for frigate class it is either buff or upgrade, i think that upgrade is a better option since frigates are kinda ok in a very early game (not taking into consideration the assault frigate and support frigate problems)

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The times are actually 30% lower than they appear.
Your first research vessel reduces times 30%, that is.

Still, yeah, much of the research is still 30% too long after that 30% reduction.

The frigate research isn’t actually TOO bad because with that research you can be building 2 ions + 2 assault frigates at the same time if you have the income. You have to take that into account.

Also, you should be using salvage corvettes against destroyers, not ions.

There’s definitely problems with balance elsewhere, but this example is actually a bad one…

Disagree, it is pretty bad.
I could use that income to something way more usefull, like fighters and corvettes, waste 4 production lines and so much RU in a 4 way line of production of frigates is just a huge waste, frigates are expensive and weak. The player that go for that destroyer will spend less RUs and will have 3 production line to do whatever he wants.
Even if you have 2 players with the same research line, straight up caps, one doing the ion and one doing the destroyer, the one doing the destroyer can do scouts, assault frigates and support frigates to repair the destroyer, the one building 4 way line of frigates will be smashed. no contest at all.
Ions are pointless right now.

Also disagree, ions are anti-capital ship.

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Wait Kadeshi! Hypothetically, if you come at me with an equal number of Destroyers backed up with (let’s say 4) assault frigates or support frigates VS my Destroyers and 4 ion Frigates…who would win?

I would focus fire on your support frigates right off the bat to avoid them healing anything, then after they quickly die, I would focus my firepower on your Destroyers + my 4 Ion Frigates helping out…would you not use your Destroyers to knock out my Ion Frigates at the start (while I’m focusing on your frigates) because they are easiest to kill? Would this fight then not be fairly even in outcome…?

Hmmm, actually no! You would have spent NO extra RUs on research for your Support Frigates, while I spent a good bit of RU setting up Ion Frigate production…hmmmm, that is effectively a loss in attrition warfare.

Anyway, I was recently beaten by a player who showed up with a wall of Ion Frigates + Destroyers against my BCs (we both had similar strike craft escort totals). Freaken Vagyr BCs tend to overkill single targets even with careful micro.

Why equal number of destroyers? you don’t need to research ion to get a destroyer, by the time you get a destroyer and 4 ions, the enemy who went straight to destroyers and skipped ions will have 2 destroyers, plus auxiliary fleet since he had 3 production slots free and better ru usage.
You are missing out something there.

Actually, re-read what I wrote. I came to a similar (but worded differently) conclusion as I fleshed out the hypothetical fleet battle and the RU/Time put into the units.

= I agree with you!

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I just mean it’s not TOO bad comapred to their other things.

Like vettes wise, their units are 3-6% worse.

Ion frigates are only like, 35% worse. And they can be made the same time as assaults. So ehh it’s kind of give and take.

You can’t always compare things unit:unit because of the different production and how resource collection works. A lot needs changed, not just individual units.

Let make myself a little more clear I’m not doing a ion frigate vs destroyer match up. I’m point out that when you are done with capital ship chassi you get two options, go for the destroyer or for the ion frigate, and right now, with the current stats on this game it is extremely pointless to do an ion frigate, ions are expensive non upgradable and slow to research, they simply suck, I can’t see a single scenario where it would be a good idea to go for the ion instead of the destroyer.

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I would not go ion over destroyer. I used to, because you used to have to research ion cannons before you could build destroyers in HW1 and it took me a while to realize you didn’t anymore. Because destroyers have ion cannons on them. Bug?

But when choosing what to research after destroyer, sometimes ion is the way to go. It’s situational to me.

Heh. Yeah in my mod I made destroyers require ions and I like it more that way.

I think they changed it because of the bad way the research UI is done with being broken up into classes of things. So it was probably weird having to click the “frigate” tab to research something for Destroyers.

Solid reasoning, except the better change would have been a better research UI. :confused:

If in short on rus I go for the missile, if I have a lot I go for the cruiser, that is the more common since that thing is op

Missiles are situational. Even if I’m RU stacked, if it doesn’t look like I’ll have time to finish a cruiser, and I needfrig/cap killing power, I’ll throw Ion research in. By that point I’m usually maxed on frigs and just replacing assaults with ions.

Sometimes I’ll ever go for field frigs, if I have a micro bug in me.