HW1 Support Frigate vs HW2 Upgrades

I’ve now seen HW1 Destroyers (being repaired by Support Frigates) take down fully upgraded HW2 Destroyers. Same goes for HW1 Heavy Cruisers (again, being repaired by Support Frigates) vs fully upgraded BattleCruisers.

Of course, you can target the Support Frigates…but then you still lose because you aren’t doing damage to the enemy heavy hitters while they decimate you.

You can’t send in strikecraft/corvettes to take out the support frigates first, because the enemy just activates a Gravity Well and you end up losing your units (a couple of Gravity Well Generator frigates instantly makes all RUs the enemy invested into fighters/corvettes a waste).

Of course, the downside to Support Frigates is that the HW1 races need to do a little bit more micro than the HW2 races (who have no need for micro to benefit from their armor enhancements). But these Support Frigates can be considered counters to the HW2 armor upgrades…

*This is a bit funny, but all the Support Frigates hanging off the Heavy Cruisers sometimes get in the way of incoming fire = not only do they heal, they also act like additional armor in themselves (to a small extent).

HW2 races can heal with their collectors.
Problem with this comparison is due to it being a 1v1. Those upgrades stack with themselves the more ships the hw2 player brings. What I mean by stack is that the more ship you have the bigger the gap starts being.
Support frigs can definitely be an advantage, but due to the poor latching I feel they are a bit lacking. If they had their old way of healing they would be monsters on the battlefield.

I would trade the current support frigates for armor upgrades any day.

As Aldran pointed out, the armor upgrades are more cost-effective long-term since it applies to multiple of the same ships. While support frigates buy time for your capital ships (both in health repaired and health provided as meat shields when they are inevitably prioritised), the total amount they provide does not make it more cost-effective than armor upgrades and do not justify the statement that they “more than make up for the lack of upgrades and modules”.

No one disputes that the repair ability of support frigates is excellent, but their ability to project this repair onto ships is poor. The latching mechanic makes it really time-consuming to begin repairs and to switch between targets. The average player is smart enough to prioritise your support frigates (especially given how fragile frigates are in HW2 balancing) or simply switch targets when you are focus repairing one ship.

Not to mention the HW2 races having firecontrol towers and CCs which can increase damage and accuracy of ships up to 30%.

However, if the latching mechanic of support frigates was done away with and their heal beam functionality restored as they had in HW1 classic (being able to repair behind ships from a distance and switch targets as fast as the ship can turn), then this might make up for the lack of armor upgrades.

Nice comparison, because those are totally equal RU comparisons (not to mention HW2 races always mine far faster mid game, but this is still a terrible comparison not taking that into account).

Please think more. :confused: You keep posting these things that are so objectively wrong…

You have to put into the account that each support frigate cost 800 ru and takes a long time to build, the hw2 counterpart will be using that ru and time to add more firepower to their fleet
From my experience, it looks like hw2 players don’t know to fight support ships yet, they target the ship being repaired, and when they realize that it is being healed they switch targets to the supports, like it is obvious they will repair, why not take them down first
With repairs into the equation you need more thinking into the fight not the good old shoot everything.
Hw1 players were able to fight each other and fight repairs with less firepower, you just need more thinking, and do that mind calculation to see if I have enough firepower to overcome the heal, or should I aim the supports first.
As for the big boys battle, just bring your own frigates along with the BC, to kill the enemy supports on the HC, after all the HW1 is using more ships, you should not expect to kill them all with one BC.

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All good points for sure.

It is just, that first encounter…okay, let’s say my HW2 fleet tries to stop a HW1 fleet attack. I’ve managed to fully upgrade my cap ships (several thousand RUs) and I have strike craft/2 destroyers and a BC. My opponent has some strike craft (or a grav well lol), a couple of destroyers, a HC and some Support Frigates.

Fairly equal RU fleet…let’s also assume equal skill and both fleets are timed to engage at the same time with full strength.

Those support frigates will be the end of me! If I target the Support Frigates first (lets say he has 5), that’s a lot of time to deal out damage to my Destroyers and BC…by the time I get the Support Frigates, I won’t have any Destroyers left and probably will have some damage on my BC. I will probably lose this battle…

Now at this point, a smart enemy isn’t going to wait for me to rebuild to let my armor upgrades play into a long term advantage. Instead, he is going to continue his attack and probably wipe out something important. This is what wins the game.

I’m not saying ‘nerf anything’ here. I’m not complaining about anything either. I just believe that this for HW1 races makes up for HW2 upgrades, TO SOME EXTENT! Not sure to what extent though…

My first 1v1 game in HWR was almost lost due to the Vaygr enemy. He destroyed 4 of my destroyers using two of his by just backtracking and fixing with harvesters. I had some support frigates but they died, while he had a quite large among of harvesters, which may I add I could not kill due to them being on the far side of the destroyer which was outrunning a Kushan destroyer sideways.
I made mistakes, I could had done it better. But my point is that, yes support frigs are better than workers, but HW2 races are far from being vulnerable to the mighty support frig.

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First, let me say that as a HW1 player, I agree with your statement that support figs should/do make up for the lack of upgrades. I’ve been fairly silent on the issue and haven’t thrown much support behind giving too much of a buff to HW1 frigates. Support frigs aren’t being used much because the latching mechanism is bad, but I would rather see that fixed than see HW1 frigs get some kind of HW2 upgrade system.

That being said, your scenario is flawed because you came to the battle with less units (5 frigs less) than I did. If you had come with 2 destroyers, 1 BC, 5 Ion frigs, you could either overcome the repair rate of the prelatched supports or, wiped out 4 of the 5 (targeting then with 1 from BC, 1 from each destroyer, and 1 from the 5 ions) in the opening seconds of the engagement. Not to mention that well would fall to a single salvo of and of those attack sources freeing your fighters.

The reason I added HP upgrades in my mod to vettes and frigates but not capitals is because, partially, yeah support frigs.

They work well on destroyers and HCs, to effectively give them more HP.

But they do nothing for frigates and vettes getting one shotted by a volley of fire or the fire from just one strong ship(BCs)

But you also have to take into account that the HP upgrade you get is a ONE TIME cost that applies to EVERY ship. It becomes more valuable the more you make.
Sure you can buy 3 support frigs for the cost of a BC health upgrade, but if/when those are destroyed you need to build more. But that’s an interesting dynamic, so long as balance just isn’t so bad as it currently is.

Support frigs are actually better for super capitals than upgrades are, but they’re also more costly. And it’s not just RU cost, but each support frig you built could have been an ion/assault.

And support frigs still need to be fixed so they don’t have to latch :confused: Should just be able to guard order and have them healing beam stuff from a bit of range…

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I was trying to keep the total RU cost to build/upgrade each fleet roughly equal. The upgrading of HW2 capital ships = several thousand RUs.

And what do you think would happen if you had 3 dessies with the upgrade, when the other player had 3 dessies but only the same cost of support frigs?..

It’s such a bad comparison to make because you can’t compare one niche situation like that and call it balanced. You have to think about the entire game. -_-

I think the HW1 3 Destroyers PLUS equal costs (to full Vagyr capital ship upgrades) worth of Support Frigates WILL BEAT the 3 HW2 Destroyers.

Are you suggesting the opposite?

I think he means it more it under the lines of this:
Assume that you have a HW1 destroyer vs a HW2 destroyer. Now, for the sake of simplicity, let the HW2 destroyer have first armor upgrade. Lets say the HW2 destroyer is Hiigaran, so 1000 RUs. That means the HW1 destroyer has a support frig, which costs 800 Rus.
In this case, the HW1 destroyer will most likely win. However, add a second destroyer and each side.
In two vs two, the HW1 side has only one support frigates, while HW2 has two upgraded destroyer. If you consider the support frig as a “upgrade” then you could say, that HW1 has an upgraded ship and an un-upgraded one. HW2 has 2 upgraded ships.
If you keep adding destroyers on each side, the HW2 gains more and more of an advantage.

Also you are not regarding the possibility of what if instead of getting upgrades, the HW2 players gets bombers. Let’s say the HW2 player gets upgrade 1, so his destroyers are already better than the HW1 destroyers, the uses the money for upgrade to build bombers and interceptors. I think 3-4 squads of bombers can kill a support frigate before they died to the HW1 interceptors (if the player did a similar thing to the HW2 one). And this shows the second problem. I can remove the HW1 “upgrades”, you cannot remove the HW2 ones.

This of course changes again if lets say a carrier is present in the area. HW2 gets reinforcements, upgrades AND fire control tower. HW1 gets reinforcements.

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Nice job breaking that down, Aldran. My example above concerned the Vaygr against a HW1 race (capital ship upgrades are far more expensive). But your example shows that in this scenario, the Hiigs would be better off against the HW1 race.

A question concerning your last scenario possibility ‘adding a carrier to each side, but the HW2 side would additionally get upgrades and fire control tower’. Wouldn’t that also mean that the HW1 side would get additional reinforcements = RU value in ships comparable to the RU cost of upgrades/firecontroltower?

Good point on that one, but would ships worth the cost of a fire control tower make up for the overall damage boost on all ships? The reason that I added a carrier was because the chances of just one destroyer vs one destroyer are rather slim on 1v1 maps since both players get a carrier.

Fair enough!

If it can help the conversation, the fire control tower gives +15% accuracy and +15% damage to all ships in a 4500m radius.