I gotta admit, El Dragon is Awesome


(ClkwrkCuttlfish) #21

Okay I give up. I remember why he is my least played now. Because I just failed to get 85+ ops points on Oscar mike vs battle school 5 times in a row.


(PSN:Santbech_2038) #22

For pve stack dr and regen.

Atleast thats what i do… Run in circles while my health gets back to full


(PSN: SirWalrusCrow) #23

I swear; this right here! :grin:


(ClkwrkCuttlfish) #24

Part of the problem is that I can’t single a target out with him. I had a similar problem with gally but it wasn’t as bad with her. The first challenge where you have to wound enemies with barrels, for example. I usually run around and kill the strikers and a couple of gunbots then blow up the blade bots that are chasing me at that point with the barrels. Simple right? Wrong! I accidentally killed all the blade bots one time without really noticing because of the spin getting them when they were behind me. I tried using clothesline to get straight to the strikers but that didn’t work well either. It kills the minions too easily and doesn’t really phase a striker. The clap was my best bet at killing a single target. I was using a free shard gen and sknk-wrk battery and arias encore that I never got to activate. I might try a cheaper loadout with some health Regen but I’m not sure it will help. If it gives me the frickin boom bot challenge again I’m just going to quit right away.


(Rlntls) #25

I am on PS4. I never run in a pre-made, as my 11 year old is my only faithful companion.

From what I have seen, Skill damage build is not as good as extra life build. I currently run a purple sword that adds attack speed and life, a blue armor that adds life plus life when shields broken and a purple shoulder guard that adds damage resistance and regen.

My typical match on incursion goes like:

run and grab crystals, build a turret, attack minions, run away, attack minions, maybe Battleborn, run away, likely die, build another turret, level up, chose left on helix 2, electrify minions, advance quicker, die running away, activate gear, get first kill on enemy BB, maybe a second kill, get killed fleeing, hit level 4 choose right on helix, clothesline in stop short, splash BB I knocked, get next kill, run away.

After I hit level 4 and have 2 of 3 pieces activated, I die a lot less and start getting more kills than deaths. I also add to assists a lot more.

Last night I went back to Phoebe and was reminded of how devastating she can be (free shard gen, glove for attack damage and speed, Jenerit legendary sword for attack speed and damage).

I can only hope that some day I get as good with El Dragon as I have gotten with Phoebe.


(Braveheart to the Graveyard) #26

Can the best Dragon player in the world truly excel or make a big impact in a premade vs premade tourney match? That is the final test for a character’s balance.

I appreciate the positivism, but Dragon is only strong in certain circumstances.


(Jennerit Supremacist) #27

Definitely. El Dragon is a lot stronger than people give him credit for. He still is one of the stronger end game characters, he just has really crap early game.


(Braveheart to the Graveyard) #28

If Deande or Rath replaced him, would their performance be better? In my opinion, yes.

Why do you believe Dragon is so great at late game?


(Jennerit Supremacist) #29

Rath plays similar to Dragon but Deande is nothing like either of the two.

He has solid initiation combined with the highest DPS of the melees while En Fuego. Levels 5 though 9 all drastically improve his durability. His level 9 life steal can restore his health from near empty to full if he hits a minion wave with close line. With his 30% damage reduction and max health gear he can soak up more damage than you’d expect.

If a game ends quickly than there would be no reason to pick Dragon over Rath. But if a game goes it’s full length Dragon will be much stronger.


(Braveheart to the Graveyard) #30

Deande as in a melee character that isn’t too tanky and is focused primarily on damage.

While En Fuego. Outside of it… the minute-cooldown ultimate…

[quote=“blainebrossart1, post:29, topic:1559642”]
Levels 5 though 9 all drastically improve his durability
[/quote]

It’s really only 5,6 and 9. Even then, now at five and six you are practically forced to pick a helix if you wish to stay alive (Heavyweight and Hang Time), which isn’t how it used to be. You could argue that From The Top at seven increases durability because it lowers the cooldown of a skill that, only after Hang Time, can be used for survival. Again, that should not be – it is too indirect and is based on a prior helix choice. At level 8, there are the dreaded Dropkick helices. Heart of the Champion is too unreliable because, while it restores 100 health or so in each hit, it’s only 100 health and you sacrifice much of your damage, which usually leads to them outlasting or out-damaging you…

[quote=“blainebrossart1, post:29, topic:1559642”]
His level 9 life steal can restore his health from near empty to full if he hits a minion wave with close line.
[/quote]

Yes, but that’s only in Incursion and Meltdown. Assuming Incursion is the setting of a tourney match… while Lifeline is a great helix, it’s also at level 9. It is difficult to reach that point, especially when other characters typically have better waveclear. You can resort to building, but taking gear to support that reduces your survivability. I prefer to leave gear out of balance discussions anyways, but only if the character is reliant on one loadout/one type of gear (in this case: Dragon and max health or defensive gear) to survive. A max health vest is much more crucial to Dragon than Rath.

[quote=“blainebrossart1, post:29, topic:1559642”]
With his 30% damage reduction and max health gear he can soak up more damage than you’d expect.
[/quote]

Again. That assumes you take 30% damage reduction and max health gear. Everyone takes the damage reduction helix (they shouldn’t have to though, that’s an indication of Dragon’s poor state), and I already covered the gear part… Dragon shouldn’t HAVE to take these helices and max health stuff in order to survive and thrive. Taking a full attack speed/skill/damage loadout would severely handicap your performance.

Rath shows more consistent cc and damage output all throughout the match. He also has higher survivability.


(Jennerit Supremacist) #31

Level 8 for bicycle kick which let’s you use your ult in lane and not get torn to shreds for standing still. Hang time is amazing. The regen plus shield recharge let’s you soak up an extra 300 or 400 damage and cooldown at level 7 makes it even better.

His ult gives him a full 10 seconds of insane damage on a 50* second cooldown compared to Rath getting 3 (actually 2.75) seconds of slightly lower damage. Just because he needs his ult for insane damage doesn’t mean it’s not useful damage. Just look at Boldur. His insane burst damage is dependant on his ult.

Late game dragon is tanky as ■■■■ for his damage output. It is entirely dependant on specific helix choices and gear though. I won’t deny that. He could be better but that doesn’t mean he’s bad. Mellka only had 8 of her 25 helix choices be worth while before all her reworking began and pretty much had to run max hp. She was still really damn good.

Rath’s survival is better in early and mid game but no where near as good as end game Dragon. As far as damage between the two of them goes, last night in a 25 minute game of meltdown. I put out around 100,000 damage throughout the game. About what I could do with Rath in a similar situation (two 4 mans each with a bad random).

So final summary: I don’t think El Dragon is in a great place, he needs specific gear and helix choices which is not good. This does not however make him weak, which is what most people think of him. It makes him restricted but not bad.


(Penguin connoisseur.) #32

I-I don’t know… So i’ll ask! Hey, @Dr_H0H0…? Did you ever make a big impact in any of the tournaments Dunk Squad won, with El Dragon? I’d answer MeltedCow myself, but i honestly don’t know the answer, because no one ever picks ME in the tournaments…


(Rlntls) #33

I have seen some truly epic El Dragon runs. Never had any myself, but I also only picked him up last week.

I think the comparison to Deande or Rath is only great if the player is equally skilled with those characters. I am fairly awful with Deande, I really want to be good with Rath but am mediocre at best, but I am very good with Phoebe.

So in your scenario, if I took El Dragon over Rath or Deande, I would likely perform better. If I took him over Phoebe (or my actual Main, Montana), I would do much worse.


(Jennerit Supremacist) #34

If you want Rath advice, let me know. He is my definite main. (Got around 750 games with him)


(Rlntls) #35

I actually have read a lot on him, specifically from you and @Kitru.

I struggle because it seems like I want a tankier style of melee, and he is too squishy. Maybe once I get better with El Dragon, I will practice a similar hit and run tactic for Rath. Thank you for the offer though.


(Braveheart to the Graveyard) #36

Level 8 for bicycle kick which let’s you use your ult in lane and not get torn to shreds for standing still.

Ah yes, the very minor change in mobility. Unless you’re REALLY jacked up on movement speed, this is too little a bonus to even be considered. It’s fun and better than standing still, but not by much. It doesn’t drastically improve durability, that’s an exaggeration.

I didn’t say Hang Time was a bad helix itself, the problem is that’s the only viable helix choice at that level.

Let’s look at this.

Dragon’s ultimate has a ten second duration, but not every bit of it is used to punch. Be practical. When you En Fuego, do you use your dragon splash or clothesline? Probably, and let’s just say using either takes out two seconds. So, it’s really an 8-second punching period. Dragon MAY still be able to out DPS Rath’s ult if he has a full 8 seconds of pure punch on-target – again, be practical, that won’t happen. Dragon may miss hits or get CC’d out or focused down – three things Rath doesn’t have to deal with the consequences of since his ultimate is not only easier to hit with but also pumps out damage far quicker over a small amount of time. ~~1500 (more I think?) over 2.75 seconds is indisputably a far higher DPS than what El Dragon has in his ult.

Boldur is broken anyways, that doesn’t even make sense. Boldur shouldn’t have the burst damage in the first place. [quote=“blainebrossart1, post:31, topic:1559642”]
Just because he needs his ult for insane damage doesn’t mean it’s not useful damage.
[/quote]

It’s not useless, but it’s just an ult that Dragon can easily be cc’d out of. It only lasts 8-9 seconds realistically.

Yes, it is bad, that’s the thing. A character is poorly balanced if he/she is entirely dependent on certain helices and gear choice. Mellka was poorly balanced. She could excel because her helix options (the ones everyone picked, not the trash) were actually really good. Even Dragon’s don’t make up for his weaknesses.

[quote=“blainebrossart1, post:31, topic:1559642”]
Rath’s survival is better in early and mid game but no where near as good as end game Dragon. As far as damage between the two of them goes, last night in a 25 minute game of meltdown. I put out around 100,000 damage throughout the game. About what I could do with Rath in a similar situation (two 4 mans each with a bad random).
[/quote]

It’s far more sustainable throughout the match, keeping Rath alive more and he doesn’t have to struggle as much as Dragon because of it. Dragon has burst lifesteal and it’s not very effective if there’s no minion wave – the enemy team can still be attacked head on with Clothesline if they are grouped together, but that’s much riskier for a multitude of reasons.

As far as damage between the two of them goes, last night in a 25 minute game of meltdown. I put out around 100,000 damage throughout the game. About what I could do with Rath in a similar situation (two 4 mans each with a bad random).

Impressive. But on multiple occasions I’ve seen more with Rath. Once by my own doing (I’m average with him), the others from a friend.

This does not however make him weak, which is what most people think of him. It makes him restricted but not bad.

Restricted is in no way good. No balanced character needs a specific loadout (general type is okay, such as tanks and damage reduction or max health) and helix pattern to excel.


(Jennerit Supremacist) #37

This is just straight up wrong. Level 8 is amazing for this reason.


The New Dragon Tech is great because in games like this, standing still often means dying. Bicycle kick overcomes the greatest weakness of En Fuego. It’s very useful regardless of how Dragon is built.

So let’s get some facts straight. Dreadwind at level 5 without skill damage gear does 1125 damage over 2.75 seconds (about 400 DPS). That I know off the top of my head but I did some quick testing with my friend @Xelaris96 for Dragon’s numbers. Without gear at level 5 with full Undisputed Champ stacks, El Dragon can do 3,500 damage over 9 seconds (about 388 DPS). Ignoring the fact that En Fuego attacks can also crit to amp the DPS even more, that difference in DPS is not “indisputably a far higher DPS”. On top of all of that, Dreadwind only scales with skill damage while En Fuego’s damage potential scales with attack damage/speed and skill damage so it’s damage potential is actually much higher. Before you say that you can’t run offense gear on him because you need max health, attack damage, attack speed and skill damage gear all can give you secondary effects of max health so you can still stack health and get damage output.

Except that hard CC doesn’t interrupt the En Fuego and neither does silence.

It does just over 600 damage with the initial hit and knock up at level ten without gear (Not while En Fuego) 100% life steal on that means an extra 600 points of health and that’s assuming you only hit one target. With his damage reduction he can soak up an extra 800 damage if there is just one person to hit with closeline.

Please check your facts before you trying to make your argument.


I know that’s why I said:

But once again, he’s not bad just because he’s restricted. He shouldn’t be forced to only a handful of gear loadouts and less than half his helix choices but even though he is he can get work done.

The majority of the community views El Dragon as a weak character but he’s far from it. He has amazing potential that shouldn’t be dismissed so easily.


(Dr H0 H0) #38

In my match at the tourney I went 6-6 but I also was forced to run econ gear so I wasn’t playing him to his fullest. I did get 2nd highest damage if I recall and made some late game plays that saved the match. [quote=“MeltedCow, post:36, topic:1559642”]
It’s far more sustainable throughout the match, keeping Rath alive more and he doesn’t have to struggle as much as Dragon because of it. Dragon has burst lifesteal and it’s not very effective if there’s no minion wave – the enemy team can still be attacked head on with Clothesline if they are grouped together, but that’s much riskier for a multitude of reasons.
[/quote]

Whereas Rath has a very solid game from the beginning Dragon only starts picking up after hitting 3-4 depending on the matchups. I have never hit over 190k damage with Rath in a match but I have hit over 200k with the nerfed Dragon so his late game potential does make up for his horrible early game. You just need to plan around that horrible early game so it’s not a huge burden on your team. [quote=“MeltedCow, post:36, topic:1559642”]
Impressive. But on multiple occasions I’ve seen more with Rath. Once by my own doing (I’m average with him), the others from a friend.
[/quote]

My highest with Rath is around 187k but I’m usually around the 100k-140k mark in even matches depending if it goes to time or not. On Dragon my damage is usually 100k-160k so he’s still overall better for me than Rath is but again it depends on team comp since I can’t always rely on me getting late game with him.[quote=“MeltedCow, post:36, topic:1559642”]
Restricted is in no way good. No balanced character needs a specific loadout (general type is okay, such as tanks and damage reduction or max health) and helix pattern to excel.
[/quote]

Far to many characters in this game are exactly like this with very little you can actually do to make them viable sadly. [quote=“MeltedCow, post:36, topic:1559642”]
Dragon’s ultimate has a ten second duration, but not every bit of it is used to punch. Be practical. When you En Fuego, do you use your dragon splash or clothesline? Probably, and let’s just say using either takes out two seconds. So, it’s really an 8-second punching period. Dragon MAY still be able to out DPS Rath’s ult if he has a full 8 seconds of pure punch on-target – again, be practical, that won’t happen. Dragon may miss hits or get CC’d out or focused down – three things Rath doesn’t have to deal with the consequences of since his ultimate is not only easier to hit with but also pumps out damage far quicker over a small amount of time. ~~1500 (more I think?) over 2.75 seconds is indisputably a far higher DPS than what El Dragon has in his ult.
[/quote]

As for his ult it’s very much one of the best ones in the game and should not even be compared to Raths since his is so weak atm. It’s pretty much the only reason he’s good late because his damage outside of Fuego is lower than Raths. I don’t think you properly tested how much it does because he hits for an insane 600 dps with a full damage loadout and just under 500 dps with my loadout. Now include his 450 damage clothesline along with 300 damage on his splash and you have a super easy 100-0 on every character in the game including Montana. I have bursted through a pocketed Montana before so please don’t underestimate his amazing ult.