I hate that lilith is made out to be a hero

In the last dlc there is a scondary quest where you help someone indulge in cannibalism, the VH protests a bit but still accept to do it, “Vault hunter are who.res” as Aurelia said :rofl:

Flaws only work when the story makes the characters acknowledge their flaws head on, or make other characters acknowledge it for them. Lilith and Ava if anything were rewarded constantly for their flaws. Ava got everything she could have wanted. Lilith is dang near regarded as a goddess.

In fact, only the reader even thinks of these character traits as flaws. No NPC in the story ever treats these characters as flowed characters which is the problem.

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yeah, amazingly the music choices the BL team picks for their games are incredible both for the song and how well they fit the game and characters themselves.

as for the topic, Handsome Jack thinks he’s the hero of his story, and we think we’re the hero in the story that Marcus tells. Every vault hunter in Marcus’ story is a hero by his definition. but the dude is just as loose with the word hero as he is with the words “my favorite customer”

(also I think I was wrong in my last post, I think TPS is told by Athena not Old Marcus and Tales might be told by Rhys and Fiona if I’m remembering right)


Oh and how much i hoped for that beeing real.
Allways thought it would be the greatest thing to loose against the twins at the end of bl3 (not everyone dying loose, but need to step back and regroup loose) just to find out jacks vision (pre-sequel) was real and he would in fact saved the planet by killing the bandits with the warrior. And in fact, we (crimson raiders) are the only reason why the galaxy is going down, do to stoping jack bevor he could stop the actual bad guys


By the way, about the topic…
Dont forget what maya and lilith talked about.
In fact i think lilith choosed ava as the leader because of what maya said and has done.

But yes on the other hand, i was also more on the “please let lilith die as the bad one” side
But actually mostly because she was one of the main characters that betrayed jack (and made him go crazy finally) and the fact that she acted so superior to athena by judging her


Jack was already crazy long before that. He shot people out of an airlock and got a kick out of it. he didn’t need anybody’s help


Yeah thats true… but i mean “im gonna wipe all bandits out of this planet” crazy…
He was crazy befor. And no, he was for shure not the good guy.
But i mean dont we vault hunters do similar things the hole time and find it funny
Listen to charakter line in bl2 and 3 when you kill a normal hyperion or maliwan soldier (that may, or may not, be an ■■■■■■■ but not shure if that would be enough to let his head explod and laugh about it) :joy:
I just think before jack got betrayed, he was not that far away from what the vault hunters are.
A lot of power, a bit of narcissim, maybe even more responsibility then most, just a little ■■■■■■■ with a dark sense of humor and a moral compass that should be questioned.
Every thing we loved and still love about most of the playable chars and npc in this game
Didnt lilith liked it first when a clan praised her by setting people on fire?
Didnt brick got nothing better to do then punch some innocent miners in the face?
Wasnt tinas biggest goal to kill a girl again that was her hole life enslaved by his father?
Or should we start to talk about krieg (as one of the good guys?) :joy:
Yes they all had there reasons. But dindt jack had them too?
In fact he was in a lot of points pretty simular to typhen wich gets praised the hole time…

I just meant that it was after the betray, (and because of it) when he went completly of the hook.


Compared to many, John was actually quite sane. He was some normal guy with a wife and child who had a crappy job at Hyperion. Events made him want to do more and so he did. Even in the Pre Sequel he was willing to stay behind to save you, let he Merriff live and was completely confused as to how Zarpedon was so complacent in murdering people - his workers (he comments how they don’t even have a real army on Helios, just innocent people), the people of Elpis and such.

It’s only as events unfold and through the actions of others that he finally snaps and becomes Handsome Jack.

I know a bunch of people get on at me saying that I paint him out as a hero - which by 2 he most definitely wasn’t! - but he definitely has one of the most compelling heel turns in the entire franchise.

Which is why I felt so let down by 3 in terms of characters. Nobody was interesting, no one had dynamic and all character development from previous games were just shrugged off.

For example - digistruct peak was made by Tannis as a way to gather information to train the Crimson Raiders with Lilith. That sounds awesome - get them ready for this big war and it made out that Lilith was planning for the future. But in 3? That’s completely gone, the Raiders do nothing to help you in the game and they just gave Tannis siren to make her ‘important’ and made Lilith flat and repeated the ‘I don’t know if I can be a leader’ stick.

I love Jack and I didn’t like Lilith because of what she did but I could still say she was a well written character. With flaws, a unique personality and potential. But in 3, she is a dead character. Nothing about Lilith in 3 made me go ‘ahhh typical Lilith!’


Lilith wasn’t really ever made out to be a good leader. (I have not played CLAFS add on for BL2 so I can’t speak to “Commander Lilith”) I mean, she ordered the death penalty for someone who was only a pawn to Handsome Jack’s rise to power, even when she played a part in him turning into a super bad-baddy. (Cl4p TP gets a full pardon on his role… execution isn’t even mentioned for him) She was forced into the role by her BF’s death. and she helped Handsome Jack finish his plan of opening the Vault of the Warrior despite all the effort that went into trying to stop him (against her will, but really she could’ve pulled an Angel too).

She ended up leading a bandit cult by accident…

and yeah, while she by character is defined by her powers and being a siren, her losing her powers and “not knowing who she is” turned her into a pretty darn dry character for the duration of BL3.

Speaking of … one of the first missions in BL3 is Marcus having you get a bandit spine, just because that’s the way things are done on Pandora.


I think if battle for sanctuary hadn’t already touched on that trope of her not being sure if she can lead or not, it might have been kinda okay. But she has been a ‘leader’ for seven years - you’d think she’d be pretty set in the role. I was really looking forward to seeing her be a leader but still be true to herself.

I don’t like Lilith but I enjoyed her character. It was believable, suited her personality and powers as well as also showed that she is a goof ball. She was a person. In 2 she still wasn’t sure how to use her powers and was learning. Progression.

Also, another minor annoyance for me, Angel in 2 could speak to us ‘in our mind’ because of the Echo Transmitter were wearing and that she pretty much has free access to most things technical. So how the heck can both Tannis and Lilith just suddenly be able to talk to you through your mind!? And why didn’t they use that for something else - communication without the twins overhearing? I don’t know why but this really bugged me.

The ‘lets make sirens really cool and powerful with badass abilities and stuff’ while in 2 you could see that you were strong but it was dangerous. It was like a curse - once you’re chosen, you become a target for life. And if you don’t learn to control it, it can destroy you or people you love. Power with no consequence - Tannis suddenly powers herself up on the machine that held angel captive with no explaination, Lilith charges at the moon and does something, Ava can control her powers perfectly and immediately without any consequence.

Perhaps that’s just my inner roleplayer coming out - hey you did this, where is your damn consequence!? Wait this happened earlier, why are we ignoring this!?

(Sorry not sorry for small rant on sirens there)

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She should’ve had at least some conflict of morals. She was already on the path of a villain before the Watcher stopped her, and the whole eridium junkie thing was dropped too fast when clearly she had a problem.

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like i said, haven’t done battle for sanctuary myself, so can’t speak to it.
though it is implied that sirens do have an innate talent for their power with Ava, and the Angel memories in 3. it seems strange that Tannis went into hiding to learn how to use hers. though I guess with Ava she’s not trying to reel in her powers like Tannis was. and Tannis makes sense to be able to talk inside your mind mainly because she has Angel’s powers. It doesn’t really explain Lilith being able to do so.

also the addictive nature of eridium should have caused more issues for Lilith and potentially Tannis given she has the amplifier in her garage.

and yeah, 7 years in the leader role, you’d expect more of a LEADER from her, rather than just a leader.

Perhaps Tannis is acting like a bridge allowing Lillith to speak to us since she’s trying to keep her powers secret.

But Angel didn’t speak to us in our mind, she was connected to pretty much every electrical system on Pandora. Which was only made possible through Hyperion tech connected to Helios which has fallen. Jack created this entire system for his daughter to be his eyes for him (and I will say even so she could see the world from her containment - as he said in the echo logs of 3 - but people will say I’m painting him a good guy again xD )

Let’s say it’s just a ‘connect through all technology’ Thing. Which is fine if Tannis could do that but then why didn’t she then go to use that power to help the team? Block out communications so they could work under the radar?

The game is full of inconsistencies - which the previous games were too, don’t get me wrong. But in 3 there was just so many that it took away from the story. It felt like it was rushed - everything was explained to us in detail and made too obvious so that the plot twists were actually incredibly obvious.

I think part of the reason I didn’t enjoy the story was just how strong the sirens were made out to be - and how the story only focused on them and nothing else. Not the other characters and even had to make characters siren in order for them to be interesting enough to them to be part of the story.

They could have easily just had Ava inherit Angels power. And that’s why she was under be tutorage of Maya and that she couldn’t use them like Angel because she had no idea how to control it. Tannis could still be Tannis and could have continued her role in assisting Lilith in training Raiders who could and should have had a bigger part in the story. Especially since that was Roland’s creation - to protect innocent people. It seems like such a waste to lose all that and even change Tannis’ personality. She was shockingly more of a leader than Lilith.


Kinda agree with this that they took a lot of the mystery of e.g. Sirens away by explaining so much, including much that didn’t need explaining, tbh. In fairness I think BL3 is setting us up for (either DLC or) BL4 and it’s laying the ground: the whole thing about Sirens being tied to Eridians in some way suggests to me that there’s more to come. Not sure if it’s for the better as I preferred it when Sirens were born that way and not “normal” beings receiving strange powers.

Why, though? I don’t see anything wrong with Ava getting Maya’s. And it would have required a complete rewrite, not least to explain the connection between Ava and Angel, who as far as I’m aware never actually met each other

Do we know for sure lilith is dead? Story doesnt really say that, not that i remember. As for Ava, she is a product of her environment. Growing up like she did is bound to loosen a few screw in her head.

It would have been some developments for Ava and explain better why Maya took her on rather than ‘I can tell she’s gonna be a siren’ with no reason behind it.

Maya finding Ava with newly formed siren markings would be a great explanation as to why she took her on - not wanting her to be found by someone else and be used like she was by the monks in 2. We could have seen Ava grow through the story, learning her powers and actually be interesting. It could explain her bratty side - why she blames everyone else. Because she’s scared of her powers - hell even make it that she killed her parents with them or something. Anything than what we actually got - of them just handing everything to her because she’s a writers pet that they want to push into the spotlight.

As much as people didn’t like Pickle in TPS, he at least didn’t become the centre of an entire story.

I think if you want to make someone a main character like they have with Ava, you need to develop them through the story. There are lots of games with children becoming an important role - look at Ellie from The Last of Us. Going from a scared kid to a strong character but still with flaws. You have to start from nothing and have them earn it, work up to it. Not just toss it to them and expect players to care.


causes problems with what to do with Maya’s powers once Troy dies though. Any way you look at it it would have required a complete re-write.

I don’t think a massive backstory is needed tbh. The only really jarring note is her being gifted Sanctuary but otherwise her bratty behaviour isn’t anything unusual. She wasn’t really a “main” character in BL3 apart from that ending which thrust her into the spotlight

She pretty much was a main character because she was involved with the main story from the moment she was introduced - from making comments to actively being part of scenes. This entire story revolves only around sirens and siren-to-be’s which to me wasn’t a good move. The previous games had characters we could resonate with.

Would have been nice for other characters to have been involved more rather than only have a say in their mission. Zer0, Ellie, Brick, Tina, Mordecai, Rhys - all big names that were massively underused.

Even Lilith, the subject of this entire topic, was mostly pushed aside with the focus set on both Tannis and Ava. The way I think of it is ‘if I remove x character from the game, would their absence be noticeable?’. In other words, their impact on the story. And both Ava and Tannis have the biggest impact - excluding Lilith at the end where she finally gets some kind of scene.

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