I Think Gearbox Is Prolly Planning To Make Lilith Into A Future Main Villain

Yeah, if lilith found out about holo jack (possibly from the new vault hunters) it would proooobably be a bad day for Rhys.

Nothing like a pissed off siren who wants to char your flesh!


I wouldn’t blame her if she did destroy that hologram of Jack. I hope Jack doesn’t return at all. He’s had his run, just let him be dead for good.


I doubt it. Jack came in from left field in BL2, and they’ve been riding his coattails for 3 games now (including TFTBL). I doubt they would make Litlith the main villian just because of a villian that has run has (imo) long overrun course.

And if BL3 doesn’t even take place on Pandora, this will be even less likely.


In NVHM she does apologize for trying to kill Athena when you complete CV.


Didn’t even think to play DLC on normal mode. I’ve only played it on UVHM and a tiny bit on TVHM. Regardless Lilith apologizing doesn’t change my point or contradict my theory. It took her how long to apologize and realize she was wrong. Ok that’s nice but Athena would be dead now and no Apology in the world would fix that. How long would it take Lilith to commit some unspeakable, unforgivable and unfix-able with a simple apology act compared to how long it would take her to realize it’s wrong and not do it at all.

Remember It took Lilith this long to realize it was wrong when the threat and danger had obviously been dead and gone for days, possibly weeks. When she learns of the Jack AI it prolly will still exist and i doubt if it took this long for rationality to come back to her when the threat had been eliminated days ago that she will become rational anytime soon before she leaves a trail of bloody and charred corpses behind her ending with Rhys destroyed body (assuming the AI still with him at the time). Remember There’s no guarantee that the trail of Dead Body’s won’t contain countless innocent people. Heck there’s no guaranteeing that we haven’t killed countless innocent people in each of the 3 games. Even tho we gleefully did it, we certainly weren’t ok with it when Jack did it so who’s to say Lilith won’t kill the “Wrong Innocent People this time”

Also if they did go with this approach i would find it very unlikely they wouldn’t pull a Darth Vader with her redeeming herself in the end because only at the very end did she realize the true reality of the terrible things she would have presumably done.

I’ll just copy SpiderTeo’s post about Lilith trying to execute Athena, in case you never saw it.

@ACNAero, dude, why you got to call me out like that?

Heheh, I do appreciate the nod, though.

You pretty much have it right there. I would add that Athena also hasn’t been doing herself any favors. The more I play TPS, the more I’m starting to dislike Athena. Back in the General Knoxx DLC, Athena appeals to the Vault Hunters with a sense of moral outrage over what Atlas has done, not just to herself but to Pandora as well. In TPS, she completely lacks that moral outrage. In fact, she stays on the job to the very end, for the sake of her professionalism, and also over a little grudge with Lilith because she sided with Moxxi when Moxxi tried to kill Jack (which would have inadvertently killed the TPS Vault Hunters as well).

In the first playthrough, even Mordecai asked why didn’t she just leave Jack’s employ after Elpis was saved. Again, she cites “Charlie Mike” and her new grudge with Ro, Lil, and Mox. Even after everything she has seen, how Jack purposely killed people out of expediency, how Jack began to enjoy and indulge in his new hobby of murder, how Jack has coveted weaponry to further his own ends, how Jack’s lies have been made more and more transparent, Athena would continue working for this guy despite Jack becoming the embodiment of everything she hated about Atlas Corp. It just doesn’t make sense!

And that’s why Lilith wanted to execute Athena. The former Lance assassin traded Atlas for Jack, and all those reasons she made to the original four Vault Hunters were completely ignored when she was working for Jack. At worst, Jack could have made Athena the new Hyperion top wet-work agent, as she was in Atlas. At best, she was just a merc looking for her pay day. In both cases and everywhere inbetween, Athena ignored the plights of others who didn’t deserve to suffer at Jack’s hand. All their friends who had died or suffered loss in the years since then, could still be alive had Athena not ignore her conscience.[/quote]


Well in regards to that i don’t see where Lilith and the other Vault Hunters have a lot of room too judge when it comes too doing terrible things to make a quick buck. If Lilith really wants to get all technical with people knowingly doing terrible things without the slightest remorse she should prolly take a moment to ask the Bandit King standing next too her what kind of things he’s been up to over the last few years. If doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize Brick has undoubtedly done far worse things over the last few years then Athena did during the Entire TPS. Sure the atrocity’s might not have been specifically brought up but you only need to look at what we know as fact from BL2 to know that his hands are drenched in Blood both Directly and In-directly. Much of it undoubtedly innocent blood tho the extent will prolly never be clear.

For those who need me to clarify what i mean, think about how he runs things among his own Bandits. His managing style is so “loose” that he constantly has to kill his own men simply because there often too stupid to recognize him. He doesn’t even make sure they take the time to recognize that your a ally so that they don’t try to kill you every time you stop by. Your apparently there most important ally but they still try to kill you. Heck, if you want to get technical the BL2 Brick introduction mission alone was prolly far more Barbaric then everything Jack did in TPS combined. You didn’t realize it because it was all played off some like a big funny joke but if you think about the actual events of that mission Brick has you slaughter dozens and dozens of his men including his “best men”. This is all why they try to kill you because Brick ordered them too as a “intuition”. And then after your intuition, after there is no longer any need to kill anyone a Non-hostile Non-threatening Slap Bandit comes out after you just murdered all of his friends and instead of trying to take revenge on you or crying like a little baby about it he instead deals with the murder of countless of his friends and comrades by sarcastically clapping for you and applauding you. And if you murder this non-threatening and non-violent slap in front of Brick he’ll laugh and commend you for your act of cold-blooded murder of his own man by saying “you really are a true slab”

Btw remember even this Bandit King who commits acts of Barbarism with the same casualness that we have when we eat breakfast every morning felt that killing Athena was too Barbaric too do. If that’s not a clear sign that Lilith was definitely 100% in the wrong for ordering her to be killed afterwards then i have no idea what is.

Take it up with @SpiderTeo if you want to argue, he’s the one who looks deeply into this stuff.

You know there is something wrong with the universe when brick takes the moral high ground.


Wouldn’t say i’m looking to argue as much as i am posting my theory for other reasons that i wouldn’t really call arguing. 1. just to get it out there 2. too figure out if someone can think of something that actually debunks it. Not attempts to debunk it but fully, convincing and almost undeniably debunks it or at the very least find a significant flaw with it which i still haven’t seen yet. 3. This is every thing i’ve figured out by myself while either thinking about it while also doing other tasks that don’t require as much thought at work or playing a game or whatever or while lying in bed trying to get to sleep but in the process realizing various things (I’ve had so many countless revelations while trying to get too sleep in my life ranging from fictional lore to religion to politics to past mistakes to past things that happened but i didn’t realize the meaning of at the time to. I’ve even figured out the answers to age old questions that have been answered all along without anyone realizing it like why VERY Bad Things MUST happen to everyone including very good people and so on and so forth. I can’t get anymore detailed on this without violating forum rules but this is completely off topic anyways). Anyways i figured this all out myself but by throwing this theory out there maybe it can be further evolved by the people who also read it. Or if it was fatally flawed to begin with then i will be more then likely to find out sooner if i put it out there.

Like I said, SpiderTeo’s your man. He might be able to at the very least make a counter point. I’m sure I’d just come up with some cop-out reason :sweat_smile:

Also, I’m watching Saints Row 2 cutscenes, and the PC is a total psychopath. Why do our PCs need to be good guys? Why can’t we have fun being brutal assh*les? Nothing to do directly with this conversation, just a question for BL in general.


Ya i love saints row and ya in saints row 2, Boss (the Main Character) is a monster who appears no morally better then the 3 main-ish Antagonists. And the Final 4th Antagonist looks like a saint compared to those 3 as well as the main character. Heck to be honest the 4th antagonist was one of the most morally upright people in the entire game. The only character who i can think of off hand who was more morally upright then him was matt who you tortured by burning his hand to a crisp and eventually killed by bashing his face in with a brick.

However i guess there was prolly a little bit of a backlash too it since he’s toned down a lot for the next 2 games and in saints row 4 they even reference a few times that he was a hardcore psychopath during saints row 2.

There was. People were complaining that they couldn’t emotionally “connect” with their character (softies). But that’s were the fun is: being a psychopathic gang leader that you would never be in real life. Why can’t we, in Borderlands, be a psychopathic Vault Hunter with no morals? Kinda like the first BL, you were just a mercenary with absolutely zero regard for anyone, anything, or any morals; pay me. I guess Wilhelm was that way too, before we killed him… But still, I would like that in future BL3: a psychopath playable-character with absolutely no morals and doesn’t pretend to be a good guy, just revels in his/her brutality. Because we haven’t truly had a character like that yet.


I don’t think controversy has anything to do with it.

Though if you want to drive the point home, look at Blizzard. Pretty much every single game they make is built on that trope. SOILERS AHEAD IF YOU PLAN ON PLAYING ANY BLIZZARD GAMES
Look at Starcraft and Kerrigan. Warcraft 3 and Arthas. Diablo and the character you play as or so I’m told (I haven’t actually played Diablo).

Also, add in Lilith’s dialogue while fighting EOS. I can’t hear well over all the gunfire but she says something to the effect of her being a villain. What?

As to the way, it’s probably easier to use existing characters than introduce and expound on new ones. Most of us are at least a little bit invested in the current ones.


I hope not. I really don’t want to kill my favorite female Vault Hunter in BL3.


Except that Kerrigan is the Queen of Blades. The mass murderer of Protoss and Terran alike. If she dies in Legacy of the Void, she’d have had it coming for a loooooong time. All Lilith did was punch Jack in the face (a dumb ending, I think a lot of us can agree) and try to execute people’s precious little waifu. Yeah, I’m that cynical about the execution. If you bring up the Destroyer’s singularity possibly killing innocents, blame Moxxi; It was her plan and instructions.

And if you mean the Lilith hologram during the EOS battle, that’s Shadow Trap manipulating various characters in Claptrap’s memory to taunt you. It does the same thing with Tannis and Zed.

I’ve always wondered why it can’t be a choice. If anything, seeing as the huge magnitude of what could be coming up, why waste Lilith being the final boss. I’d have her as a mid-story boss, and we get the option to kill her or spare her. I’d then have a different side quest unlock depending on what you choose to do. If you kill her, Mordecai or Brick give you a quest to find some echos that speak of her decent (or something else), and if you spare her, she gives you a quest to get stuff to help her recover from her injuries, both physical and mental; both quests would have the same xp and item reward, as to not screw over someone for picking the “wrong” choice. I was thinking a Double Anarchy as the reward.

Someone said that it was a terrible idea because of co-op, but the more choices the better. And what about solo players? Does everything have to revolve around co-op? If they make a BL4, then I don’t know how to go about which choice would be canon or not, but screw it, I’m trying to make both Lilith lovers and haters happy.


Brick was kinda that way in Borderlands 1 but it doesn’t really count since it has been revealed that the four main Vault Hunters never had any more back story to their characters then what we saw in Borderlands 1 until Anthony made it all up for BL2. The Borderlands 1 VH dialogue had nothing to do with there actual characters since they had no actual character at the time. The dialogue was all chosen based on what sounded cool or funny. Anthony did his best to create there characters based on that dialogue since that was the only character the BL1 vault hunters had b4 BL2. He stated the only character he has ever felt confident that he did a good job interpreting them was Brick. The others were less able to be defined from there Dialogue. Mordecai said things like “Boom” but this isn’t very character defining and neither is a whole lot else he said. Roland had the farthest from BL1 interpretation but i’ll take BL2 Roland over “It’s Like Christmas” any day.

To be honest if they do it i want them to commit to doing it and do it right. If they were to do that it seems to me both sides would end up being a half-a$$ version of the story they would have instead if they committed to doing 1 story and doing that 1 story as good as possible.

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Yeah, I’ve seen those videos, An Evening with Gearbox. But my point is that at some point in the series, everyone thinks they’re a good guy. BL1 and BL2 VHs think they’re good guys when they’re killing Angel and Jack, TPS VHs think they’re good guys when they’re killing Zarpedon. Jack believes he is the hero up to and including when we kill him. I just want someone who knows they’re not a good guy, does not try to act like one. Just goes about killing people and getting paid, couldn’t give a flying f*ck about anything else.

That’s why I left those quests as side quests, as to not make an impact on the main story. My thinking is that which ever you choose does not impact the main story at all, apart from some unique dialog. I, as a Lilith lover, would rather have the choice of whether to kill her or spare her than to have no choice at all. Like I said, I’m trying to make a compromise that will make both the Lovers and Haters happy. If anyone else has a better compromise, I would love to read it.


What you described isn’t realistic and more to the point isn’t human. Human Psychology 101: No Human Being has ever seen them self as the bad guy. Hitler didn’t see himself as the bad guy, The Colombine murderers didn’t see themselves as the Bad guy, The Dark Knight Rises Shooter didn’t see themselves as the Bad guy, Sandy Hook Shooter didn’t see them self as a bad guy, Stalin Didn’t see them self as a Bad Guy, No Human Being has ever seen them self as a bad guy and to do so would be LITERALLY un-human. Every single evil act any human has ever committed in history was done with a personal justification for why they believed it was ok for them too do it. A excuse that they felt was good enuff to make it ok. There excuses might have been Bullcrap to everyone else with a rational mind but for that person or persons they were good enuff.